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Author Topic: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?  (Read 1830 times)

Offline seemunny

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How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« on: May 12, 2008, 12:21:09 AM »
We all have heard about the legend of the "tritone", but normally it is used coupled with a major triad to form a altered dominant chord. But i think i also "faintly heard" that it can also be used to make major & minor chords as well.

Can we have some examples of that, if any? 8)

Offline betnich

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008, 12:34:08 AM »
Hint - Dominant 7th/13th - in quartal (fourths) harmony -

(Potentially showing my ignorance)

LH -  F    B    E   

RH -  A   D    G


the Tritone is the lowest interval, between F and B, in the bass...

Offline seemunny

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008, 01:17:52 AM »
Betnich, nice try and thanks. But that chord is not a major or a minor chord.

I was wondering if the use of the left hand tritone (two notes/3 whole steps apart), can be coupled with a right hand chord, so the end result is either a major chord or a minor chord.

But thanks again. 8)

Offline rspindy

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 11:25:05 AM »
The tritone is the definitive constituent of a Dominant 7 chord (a major triad with a minor 7 causing a tritone between the 3rd and 7th of a chord.  A dominant 7 chord can be defined just by its tritone.  In other words, a tritone, without any other notes, is indicating that the root is a major third below one of the two notes.

For example, the tritone E - Bb:  A major third below E is C defining a C7, a major third below Bb is Gb defining a Gb7 (the E now being spelled as Fb-- these two 7ths share the same tritone and each represents the tritone substitute for the other.  This is why there are  often proscriptions about adding tensions (9, 11, 13 and their alterations) that cause tritones between upper members of a chord -- they cause ambiguity.  The tritone tries to indicate that the actual root is the note a major 3rd below one of its members.  Try this.  Start with a tritone G# D, move down a half step (G C#), another (F# C), one more (F B) and finish with E C interval.  Now, to each one add a bass moving in 5ths E/ G# D, A / G C#, D /F# C, G / F B, C / E C.  Now try it with the bass moving by half steps from E (E, Eb, D, Db, C) then from Bb (Bb, A, Ab, G, C -- note the final 5th movement.)  The progressions work either way and can ultimately move to the same place (C).

Example -- the C maj 7 usually will not contain the natural 11th (F) because it contains the tritone B - F: the prime constituent of a G7 chord.  If we look at the two C maj 11:   C E G B D F A  and G11: G B D F A C, they contain the same pitches.  It wants to be a G11 but it has the "wrong Bass."

This idea is generally true for both major and minor chords.  Of course, the m7b5 (half-diminished) and the diminished 7 both contain tritones.  Both of these often behave as a V chord (9 or b9) without a root (a kind of disguised V).

The only chord that may be said to be somewhat minor in quality and contains a tritone is the minor 7 b5 when used as a form of II in a II - V progression.  This chord comes from Harmonic and natural minors and acts as an altered minor 7.  In this case, the tritone is between the root and the b5.

The diminished 7 chord contains 2 tritones and as such can act as a rootless b9 harmony over one of four roots.  (A C dim == C Eb Gb Bbb(or A) thus its potential roots are: Ab, Cb(B), D(Gb = F#), or F)

Adding a minor chord above a tritone will generally crate a rootless voicing of some dominant 7 chord.  Those that work can be explained and have a tendancy to act as a dominant based off of a maj 3rd below one of the tritone members.

F B / D F A (Dm) = G9 (rootless); F B / Ab Cb Eb (Abm) = G7 #5 b9 (Eb = D#, Cb = B).  Many of these, the root can be changed to its tritone substitute (you get two dominant voicings for the price of one).

Rootlessness is part of the reason for voicings with the tritone as the lowest part.  It keeps the keyboard player out of the way of the bass player allowing that person freedom.

There may be instances out there that context will allow the feeling of minorness over a tritone.  But these are rare at best (I've been playing for 40 years and can't think of one).  But, if you realize that in general, a tritone represents a dominant 7 type chord with the root being a major third below one of its constituents.  When ever you see any dominant 7 chord, you can represent it with just the tritone.

Offline T-Block

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008, 02:13:17 PM »
But i think i also "faintly heard" that it can also be used to make major & minor chords as well.

Can we have some examples of that, if any? 8)

There-in lies your dilemma.  A tri-tone can't be used to make major & minor chords.  Why?  Because the very formula for major and minor chords don't contain any of the intervals needed for a tri-tone  They can, however, be used in conjunction with major & minor chords as it was stated ealier by betnich & rspindy.  So, to answer your question, there are no examples possible.
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Offline betnich

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 11:37:41 PM »
Betnich, nice try and thanks. But that chord is not a major or a minor chord.

I was wondering if the use of the left hand tritone (two notes/3 whole steps apart), can be coupled with a right hand chord, so the end result is either a major chord or a minor chord.

But thanks again. 8)


You're correct - The only three-tone chords that have them are the diminished (C? = C Eb Gb)

But minor 6th chords have the tritone (Cm6 = C  Eb  G  A, tritone between Eb and A)

Offline seemunny

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 12:19:29 AM »
Thanks Rspindy! You went deep, and i appreciate that! Very informative. And i hear you on that rare b5minor.

And T-block, im Well aware that you could teach circles around me, and i will gladly continue to learn! lol....However:

There-in lies your dilemma.  A tri-tone can't be used to make major & minor chords.......So, to answer your question, there are no examples possible.

Wouldn't this be one? (play on the beats WITHOUT parentheses); (root=C; chord=Cm7,9,13)

Eb, A / Bb, D, G: 1 (2e&)
Eb, A / Bb, D, G: a (3, 4)
Eb, A / Bb, D, G: 1
Eb, A / Bb, C, G: 2 (e&)
Eb, A / Bb, D, G: a (3, 4)

note: similar "rhythm" as D'Angelo's "Chicken Grease" if you've ever heard it.

Betnich, that is indeed correct.  8)

Offline musallio

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 05:56:42 AM »
whooa..very interesting topic here..

Good to see musicians thinking hard about interesting ways of applying theory..
pity I can't be on this full-time right now..
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Offline T-Block

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 10:20:23 AM »
Wouldn't this be one? (play on the beats WITHOUT parentheses); (root=C; chord=Cm7,9,13)

Eb, A / Bb, D, G: 1 (2e&)
Eb, A / Bb, D, G: a (3, 4)
Eb, A / Bb, D, G: 1
Eb, A / Bb, C, G: 2 (e&)
Eb, A / Bb, D, G: a (3, 4)

note: similar "rhythm" as D'Angelo's "Chicken Grease" if you've ever heard it.

Betnich, that is indeed correct.  8)

You've just proven my point, the tri-tone is being used with the minor chord.  Tri-tones can be used to make major & minor 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th chords.  They can't be used to make plain old major & minor chords.  It's just not possible because major chords use 1-3-5 and minor chords use 1-b3-5.  There's no way to put a tri-tone there to end up with either of those scale degree combos.  Anything other than those and u got a different chord altogether.

Is this what u are referring to or are we talking about 2 totally different things?
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Offline seemunny

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 12:56:06 AM »
Is this what u are referring to or are we talking about 2 totally different things?


T-block, that's my bad. I should've made myself more clear.

I have a habit of seeing chords as the three major overall catagories: (major, minor, dominant) thus when i say "minor" i mean ALL minors including extendeds & altereds. So basically i was comparing "minor usage" as opposed to the NORMAL "dominant usage" of the tritone. You thought i meant minor "triad". But i should have been more clear. My bad.

But you're right, of course a triad doesn't contain a tritone. However, in the interim period, i was able to find a decent extended minor chord using the tritone - the cm7,9,13. I guess one is limited to either a m6 or m13 of sorts if the tritone is used in this way, being that the b3 & the 6 is where the tritone would be located, minorly speaking.

If there's anything i left out, feel free to fill it in.

By the way, i'm still hyped on that "Taking It Out" Part 1!  Thanks again! 8)

Offline rspindy

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 09:48:49 AM »

You're correct - The only three-tone chords that have them are the diminished (C? = C Eb Gb)

But minor 6th chords have the tritone (Cm6 = C  Eb  G  A, tritone between Eb and A)

I thought of addressing that and one other in my original post, but it was already getting long.

The minor 6th chord is an inversion of the m7b5 built on the 6th.  (Am+6 = A C E F#; F#m7b5 = F# A C E).  This is (if you will excuse my language) a possible exception.  But, If you build it with the tritone as the lowest part (C F# / A C E or F# C / A C E) you are going back to a rootless Dx9.  For the Am+6 to be felt as such (and it is generally used in a I or IV situation) it needs a firm "A" in the bass, otherwise it will be felt as a dominant quality.

The other situation is a Maj 7 #11 -- the #11 forming a tritone with the root.  Here, the tritone affect is ameliorated by the distance between the root and the #11 in the voicing.  But again, if the tritone were to become the lowest part, the affect will change to a dominant on the second second scale step above the root.

The C maj7 #11 (13) = C E G B D F# (A);  D13 = D F# (A) C E G B.  The maj7 #11, to be such needs a firm root and a voicing of the #11 over an octave above the root.  Also, this chord will either occur in a I or IV position, or as a tritone substitute passing such as Vmaj7 - bIIMaj7 #11 - Imaj7.  In this case, the #11 is the same pitch as the V root.

Therefore, It is still difficult to build a Major or Minor quality over a tritone as the lowest unit of the voicing (which seemed to be the gist of the original question.

Offline T-Block

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 11:26:16 AM »
I have a habit of seeing chords as the three major overall catagories: (major, minor, dominant) thus when i say "minor" i mean ALL minors including extendeds & altereds. So basically i was comparing "minor usage" as opposed to the NORMAL "dominant usage" of the tritone. You thought i meant minor "triad". But i should have been more clear. My bad.

AAAHHHHHH, I see.  Why didn't u say that before?  LOL.  :D
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Offline seemunny

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Re: How Can The Tritone Be Used As a Major Or Minor Chord?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 12:53:23 AM »
AAAHHHHHH, I see.  Why didn't u say that before?  LOL.  :D


Ha! my bad! lol 8)
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