"You Can't Write That: It Doesn't exist"

[Ladyn]

Hi Everyone,

I just watched a documentary on James Brown, and I have a pressing question to ask.  I heard one of his musicians state that some of the performed music "did not exist" .  In other words you could not notate it or transcribe it.  I wish I had a clip to share so you could hear it. It is just one of his breakdowns before "papa's got a brand new bag" .  I just want to know if there is a such thing as music that can not be transcribed.  IF so then explain how that is possible.

I may be interpreting what was stated wrong too. I am going to youtube to find an example of what they showed. 

[Fenix]

I think i know what you mean. I suppose it is typical of jazz. Someone once told me that 90% of jazz songs cannot be transcribed, either cuz they are too fast or they are improved on the spot.

Also consider that maybe that same musician who said the music could not be transcribed was talking from the viewpoint of awe. He prolly meant that his music was beyond printed sheet music.

I have heard some crazy tunes that defy explanation, especially jazz tunes and those rock shredders. Also if you listen to some of Bach's Fugues, you'll wonder how the heck that music was transcribed. First time i heard Fugue in G minor, i was in AWE!!! When i saw the sheet music, i was stupefied. This joint had 4 different parts being played on the piano at almost the same time. He had the alto, tenor, soprano parts...it was crazy.

[under13]

I think i know what you mean. I suppose it is typical of jazz. Someone once told me that 90% of jazz songs cannot be transcribed, either cuz they are too fast or they are improved on the spot.

Also consider that maybe that same musician who said the music could not be transcribed was talking from the viewpoint of awe. He prolly meant that his music was beyond printed sheet music.

I have heard some crazy tunes that defy explanation, especially jazz tunes and those rock shredders. Also if you listen to some of Bach's Fugues, you'll wonder how the heck that music was transcribed. First time i heard Fugue in G minor, i was in AWE!!! When i saw the sheet music, i was stupefied. This joint had 4 different parts being played on the piano at almost the same time. He had the alto, tenor, soprano parts...it was crazy.

I have Bach's prelude and fugue book. When I saw how hard it looked I just put it on the shelf.

I agree that some things cant be put on sheet music. Look at some of hese Gospel and jazz organist who do crazy glissandos (swipes) and do these crazy fast runs. I'm sure with the correct software, you could put it on sheet music, bit it would probaly look like a mess of notes, and would be too hard for anyone to read, and play it  properly. OUr kind of music is more about feel, than reading notes

[Ladyn]

Thanks Fenix and Under13, I have those fugues too talk about  wow!

have Bach's prelude and fugue book. When I saw how hard it looked I just put it on the shelf.

I agree that some things cant be put on sheet music. Look at some of hese Gospel and jazz organist who do crazy glissandos (swipes) and do these crazy fast runs. I'm sure with the correct software, you could put it on sheet music, bit it would probaly look like a mess of notes, and would be too hard for anyone to read, and play it  properly. OUr kind of music is more about feel, than reading notes

Ok, I see now.   It is possible to transcribe some of these pieces; it's just not practical.

[T-Block]

I just watched a documentary on James Brown, and I have a pressing question to ask.  I heard one of his musicians state that some of the performed music "did not exist" .  In other words you could not notate it or transcribe it.  I wish I had a clip to share so you could hear it. It is just one of his breakdowns before "papa's got a brand new bag" .  I just want to know if there is a such thing as music that can not be transcribed.  IF so then explain how that is possible. 

There really is no such thing as music that can't be transcribed.  But like under13 said, you probably wouldn't be able to reproduce it very well cuz it would just be a bunch of notes on the paper.

Also, there are some chords that can be played that technically don't exist in modern or classical chord notation, but you can give it a name using music theory.

OUr kind of music is more about feel, than reading notes

While that is true, u do have to 1st know something (notes, chords, runs, etc.) before u can play by feel.

[betnich]

Hee - Music is more than just sheet music - even the good Classical musicians know that.

What a blessing, now that we have recording technology. Imagine what somebody like J.S.Bach must have sounded like in his glory!

[musallio]

I have Bach's prelude and fugue book. When I saw how hard it looked I just put it on the shelf.

 it would probaly look like a mess of notes, and would be too hard for anyone to read, and play it  properly.

I remember coming across a book with some scored riffs & organ runs...I just thought to myself: Is this what it's suppossed to look like or what...
I just left the music alone

maybe I should now brave it & see where it will take me..

[rspindy]

Transcribing music, particularly when it involves improvisation can be near to impossible.  The problem is the notation system handed down to us from the middle ages.  It has been deficient in fully notating music for centuries -- since the time of plainchant Gregorian Chant, for which it was designed.  It is always possible to transcribe a general sense of the music, but not always possible to notate all of the nuance.  Again, there is not a piece by Bach or Beethoven or Mozart or Brahms or Chopin that "accurately" transcribed to truly indicate their intentions.

A particular part of the problem involves instruments that can play "in the cracks" (micro-tones) and such.  Our basic notation system was not designed for more than 12 notes (it was actually originally designed for 7 note scales (the church modes) but was reasonably adaptable to a 12 note tonal system.)  There are notation systems and additions that can overcome some of these deficiencies, but that is a whole other learning curve (like about 12 symbols for Sharp and Flat indicating how Sharp or how Flat), particularly when next to no one is using them.

Rhythm notation is also filled with problems, particularly in jazz and rock solo transcriptions -- but again that has been going on since a year and a half after  rhythm notation was invented.

Also, some of what James Brown or any improviser has created may be equipment specific or may be possible on different equipment but using totally different techniques.  Distortion unit A may require a different set of notes to be played than Distortion unit B to get the same basic sound.

As such, any solo transcriptions that you use should be used in conjunction with the actual recording.  To bad we don't have recordings of Bach, and Beethoven, et. al.
But, aahhh, that is the Joy of Music, there are always new challenges.

Of course, as digital technology gets better, there may soon be a computer notation program that can "read" and transcribe an audio part (there are some that will do for single line melodies, but they have difficulty with chords.)

[Ladyn]

Transcribing music, particularly when it involves improvisation can be near to impossible.  The problem is the notation system handed down to us from the middle ages.  It has been deficient in fully notating music for centuries -- since the time of plainchant Gregorian Chant, for which it was designed.  It is always possible to transcribe a general sense of the music, but not always possible to notate all of the nuance.  Again, there is not a piece by Bach or Beethoven or Mozart or Brahms or Chopin that "accurately" transcribed to truly indicate their intentions.

A particular part of the problem involves instruments that can play "in the cracks" (micro-tones) and such.  Our basic notation system was not designed for more than 12 notes (it was actually originally designed for 7 note scales (the church modes) but was reasonably adaptable to a 12 note tonal system.)  There are notation systems and additions that can overcome some of these deficiencies, but that is a whole other learning curve (like about 12 symbols for Sharp and Flat indicating how Sharp or how Flat), particularly when next to no one is using them.

Rhythm notation is also filled with problems, particularly in jazz and rock solo transcriptions -- but again that has been going on since a year and a half after  rhythm notation was invented.

Also, some of what James Brown or any improviser has created may be equipment specific or may be possible on different equipment but using totally different techniques.  Distortion unit A may require a different set of notes to be played than Distortion unit B to get the same basic sound.

As such, any solo transcriptions that you use should be used in conjunction with the actual recording.  To bad we don't have recordings of Bach, and Beethoven, et. al.
But, aahhh, that is the Joy of Music, there are always new challenges.

Of course, as digital technology gets better, there may soon be a computer notation program that can "read" and transcribe an audio part (there are some that will do for single line melodies, but they have difficulty with chords.)

I really understand even more now. Thanks Rspindy.  So there is a seperate notation possible for those instruments that are not tempered ( ie. violin)  where they can actually play a G# and Ab differently?  How would you notate that? I am just curious. Thanks again for your response.

Another thought: since Bach, Beethoven,  et. al. are not accurately transcribed to truly indicate their intentions, why do some people have a hissy fit when someone improvises a little as in changing the attack or dynamics?

[musallio]

That was another moment of brillinace by rspindy..

Thanks a wholot

[rspindy]

I really understand even more now. Thanks Rspindy.  So there is a seperate notation possible for those instruments that are not tempered ( ie. violin)  where they can actually play a G# and Ab differently?  How would you notate that? I am just curious. Thanks again for your response.

Another thought: since Bach, Beethoven,  et. al. are not accurately transcribed to truly indicate their intentions, why do some people have a hissy fit when someone improvises a little as in changing the attack or dynamics?

Some people think that Bach and Beethoven and Company communicate with them from the beyond.

Reminds me of a joke.  A German musicologist thought that Beethoven may have been buried with one of his manuscripts.  He goes to the cemetery and digs up Beethoven's grave.  He reaches the casket and finds this little old white haired man sitting at a desk with a candle for light.  The little old white haired man is erasing the music from the manuscript in front of him.

The  German musicologist asks in shock and horror, "Herr Ludwig, Vhat are you doing?"
Beethoven replies, "Can't you see, I'm decomposing."

(Sorry, I just couldn't keep it in any longer.)