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Author Topic: Question???????  (Read 4504 times)

Offline musallio

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2008, 03:27:45 PM »
Well T-Block, I get U well m8.
I also look at the minor relative to the major: I'd be very lost & confused if I tried to look @ thinks from a "minor perspective".

ie..I do agree with U ;)
I was just not going to accept U saying that there can't be a minor progression (of whatever sort it may be!) ;)

Ray, what' your say man?
I have none more 2 add here :P
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Offline tammyid

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2008, 08:01:03 PM »
Great discussion here.  The same question was asked yesterday in the Hear And Play Forum.  Check out my response there and let me know what you think.  Thanks!

http://zone.hearandplay.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5712

God bless! :)
Tammy

Offline rEaLiTy|cHecK

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 10:58:36 AM »
like B3Wannabe said, the issue here is using arabic numbers to describe the progressions, as opposed to using Roman numerals. a
"7-3-6-2-5-1" progression as we know it, in reality is a bunch of secondary chords put together to form a sequence, creating all the non-scalar notes. the progression (remembering that we name chords based on function, not just spelling) would actually be notated ii (half diminished)/vi - V/vi - vi (or V/ii) - ii (or V/V) - V7 - I. V/V being pronounced "five of five" and so on and so forth.

to answer the original question, you would just change around the uppercasing or lowercasing of the roman numerals for a minor progression.

ii/VI - V/VI - VI - ii (half diminished) - V - i.

now, notice something here. we know relative majors and minors are a minor third apart. notice that in that minor progression, u have the same ii (half diminshed) - V - i that you had in the major progression, except now vi is i. if u were to continue the circle of fifths in the minor progression, it'd be identical to the one in the major progression  ;D

dontcha love music ;D ;D ;D

Offline musallio

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2008, 11:13:52 AM »
like B3Wannabe said, the issue here is using arabic numbers to describe the progressions, as opposed to using Roman numerals. a
"7-3-6-2-5-1" progression as we know it, in reality is a bunch of secondary chords put together to form a sequence, creating all the non-scalar notes. the progression (remembering that we name chords based on function, not just spelling) would actually be notated ii (half diminished)/vi - V/vi - vi (or V/ii) - ii (or V/V) - V7 - I. V/V being pronounced "five of five" and so on and so forth.

to answer the original question, you would just change around the uppercasing or lowercasing of the roman numerals for a minor progression.

ii/VI - V/VI - VI - ii (half diminished) - V - i.

now, notice something here. we know relative majors and minors are a minor third apart. notice that in that minor progression, u have the same ii (half diminshed) - V - i that you had in the major progression, except now vi is i. if u were to continue the circle of fifths in the minor progression, it'd be identical to the one in the major progression  ;D

dontcha love music ;D ;D ;D

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The last statement re-iterates what I've already stated..

I gotta get into the habit of using Roman numerals now :)
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Offline teresac

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 10:57:22 AM »
This is my disclaimer.  ;)

I'm just beginning to study the minor keys but I believe that there are minor progressions. 

Check out this site. It has nice examples of three chord and two chord cadences, including minor cadences.
http://www.tonalcentre.org/Cadentialprog.html


Explanation of cadence:  http://www.tonalcentre.org/Cadence.html.
 

Offline musallio

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2008, 07:45:08 PM »
This is my disclaimer.  ;)

I'm just beginning to study the minor keys but I believe that there are minor progressions. 

Check out this site. It has nice examples of three chord and two chord cadences, including minor cadences.
http://www.tonalcentre.org/Cadentialprog.html


Explanation of cadence:  http://www.tonalcentre.org/Cadence.html.
 


Superb stuff Teresac :o

Some1 will have to re-explain some other stuff in that site.. ;D
Cool tools.
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Offline rspindy

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2008, 02:45:26 PM »
Whats good fam. I got a question for my theory peeps. Is there a such thing as a minor 7-3-6-2-5-1 progression? ?/? ?/? ?/? :-\ And could you explain it for me.

THANKS IN ADVANCE ;D

Ok folkses,

Let me enter the fray on this one.

[First a note from our sponser:  I use Arabic numerals [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] to indicate scale-steps as they relate to the Major Scale and Chord members [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 11 13] as they relate to the major scale of the chord root (or 1).

I use Roman numerals [I II III IV V VI VII] when I am referring chords and the movement from root to root.

a scale step, chord member, or chord root preceded by "b" (flat) indicates that that step is lowered by a half-step from that note as it Naturally Occurs in the major scale.  Thus, in the key of D major [D E F# G A B C# D], a b3 or bIII indicates that the naturally occuring 3 (F#) is lowered a half-step to F natural.  A "#" (sharp) indicates that it is raised one half step from that note as it Naturally Occurs in the major scale.  Thus in the key of Bb, a "#1" or "#I" indicates that Bb is raised one half step to B natural.]

First, there are minor progressions, otherwise there would be no tonal music in minor (No, Beethoven's 5th, or the Chopin Funeral March, or Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm.)  The establishment of tonality (the key) and modality (Major or Minor) is built on the premise of harmonic progression.

The question was "Is there a minor progression 7-3-6-2-5-1?"   We know that there is a succession of chords with these roots (using the minor scale which at least alters "3" to b3 (bIII).  The question is whether or not this combination of chords form a progression that establishes I as tonic and minor as mode.

Minor is a tricky devil.  Besides the three types of minor:  Natural (Aeolian), Harmonic, and Melodic (which is traditionally the Melodic minor ascending and the Natural minor descending), there is also Dorian and Phrygian minor.  It is further complicated by the fact that the Major chords on bIII and bVI (particularly with bVII) try to establish themselves as I and IV or the relative major.

The goal of a tonal progression is the cadence, a kind of musical punctuation.  In tonal harmony, the cadence is marked by the root movement II V I (in C: D G C) or IV V I (in C: F G C) [at this moment, I am talking strictly about the roots of the chords, not the upper members that distinguish between major, minor, dominant, diminished or augmented]

Strictly modal music, that in Aeolian (or Natural), Dorian, or Phrygian modes, do not generally use tonal methods (harmonic progressions) to establish their key center (I) and mode and usually have cadence formulas that avoid the V chord since Vm (its 3rd is the b7 scale step) does not lead as definitively to I as it does in the tonal Major/minor system.

Therefore, in the tonal system, minor generally refers to either Melodic Minor (which in traditional harmony has an ascending form that uses the natural 6 and 7 of major and in the descending for the b6 and b7, since the leading tone effect is not necessary: the descending form is the same as the Natural or Aeolian minor) or harmonic minor, which maintains the leading tone 7 of major and retains the b3 and b6 of natural minor.

The Harmonic Minor is the beginning point for harmonic progressions and cadences in minor (hence its name) while the Melodic Minor is the beginning point for melodies in minor (hence its name).  It is also possible that these two modes of minor may be in operation at the same time.  Also, minor harmony is more fluid than major, thus each harmonic root (and in some cases the roots themselves) have more than one option, depending on context, and can be derived from any of the forms of minor.

For now, we will explore the question strictly through the Harmonic Minor and go from there.

In Harmonic Minor, the chords and their qualities are:
In triads:  Im, II*, bIII+, IVm, VM or Vx7, bVIM, VII* ["*" indicates "diminished", "x" indicates "dominant", "+" indicates "augmented"].  Note that triadic harmonies admit the use of the Vx7.

In Sevenths:  ImM7 IIm7b5 bIIIM7#5 IVm7 Vx7 bVIM7 VII**7 ["mM7" is a minor triad with a Major 7, "**7" is the "diminished 7th"]

We first need to recast the progression into a Harmonic Minor context, thus we are building on roots "VII bIII bVI II V I"  To discover whether or not this progression is possible in minor, lets work backwards.  We can then discover if and where problems may occur in fulfilling our mission of establishing "I" as tonic and Minor as mode.  Furthermore, we can try each succession beginning with the initial chord of the set or by adding an initial "I"

First, the cadence.  In the set of chords presented, we are offered the "II V I" variant of the tonal cadence.  This will establish "I" as tonic, so can it establish the mode?  Our cadential progression is "II* Vx7 Im" or "IIm7b5 Vx7 ImM7",  Either one contains the two notes that are most characteristic of minor, scale steps b3 (in Im or ImM7), and b6 (the b5 of II* or IIm7b5).  This cadence cannot be misconstrued as being in Major.  We could further strenghten this by making V a Vx7(b9) [the (b9) being the b6 of the minor scale].  Also try it by adding an initial Im

Now we move back a step and add bVI to our progression.  bVI is a major chord:  bVIM II* Vx7 Im or  bVIM7 IIm7b5 Vx7 ImM7.  The bVI chord contains both b6 and b3.  Major harmonies tend to be more assertive than minor but, if we look at the progression of chord qualities we have, "Major, diminished (m7b5), dominant, and minor", a combination that would not normally be found in establishing major: VI minor , II minor, V dominant, I Major).  Again try it both with and without an initial I.

Now one more step back and we add the bIII, which is I of the relative major.  bIII is an augmented triad, which has a bit of a dominant quality, and in 7ths an augmented triad with a major 7 (bIIIM7#5), which I find a bit uncomfortable.  The root movement, particularly as the initial root movement of a progression, might be felt as I to IV in the relative Major (in Cminor: Eb), or V to I in the key of the bVI (in Cminor: Ab).  The possibility that may ameliorate that sense is the #5 since it is not a normal member of the relative Major.  Let's try it and see:

bIII+ bVIM II* Vx7 Im or in sevenths bIIIM7#5 bVIM7 IIm7b5 ImM7

Our progression is now:  bIII+ bVI II* Vx7 Im or  bIIIM7#5 bVIM7 IIm7b5 Vx7 ImM7.

This to me is a bit tentative.  Of course, it may be more strongly felt with a melody in tow.  But let's push forward.

Now we add the VII* or VII*7:  VII* bIII+ bVI II* Vx7 Im or  VII*7 bIIIM7#5 bVIM7 IIm7b5 Vx7 ImM7.  The full diminished 7th chord is by its nature ambiguous and does not lead as convincingly to bIII as we might hope.  In the realms of Harmonic minor, so far I would have to say that a root movement by 5ths starting with VII is not necessarily available in minor (at least at this point).

If we look further, we might notice that the succession of chords is missing the color that is one of the most characteristic in minor:  the IVm.  If we add Im and IVm before the progression, we come out a little better:  Im IVm VII* bIII+ bVI II* Vx7 Im or  ImM7 IVm7 VII*7 bIIIM7#5 bVIM7 IIm7b5 Vx7 ImM7

**** As I said earlier, in actual practice, pieces written in minor frequently employ the qualities from the various modes.  Therefore, try interchanging the various possibilities for each root.  The are as follows:

I:  Im; Im7; ImM7
II:  bIIM7; IIm7b5; IIm7
bIII:  bIIIM7, bIIIM7#5
IV:  IVm7, IVx7
V:   Vm7, Vx7
bVI:  bVIM7,VIm7b5
VII:  bVII,VIIm7b5, VII*7

Thus, we get something like:  Im IVm VIIm7b5 bIIIM bVIM IIb5 Vx7 Im or Im IVm VIIm7b5 bIIIM VIm7b5 IIb5 Vx7 Im.

(I hear some traces of Chopin's Prelude in C minor)

In most instances that I can recall of "extended progressions" in the minor, they often sound as two different progressions in juxtaposition, the first leading to a major quality on bIII or bVI and the second leading to the minor I.  This is part of the nature, and interest of minor keys: the conflict between the relative major and the intended minor -- a battle of good vs. evil between bIII and I.

In answer to the question I would have to say that, there is a succession of chords possible following the 7-3-6-2-5-1 pattern, but as it stands, without at some point actually leaving the patteren (such as Im in first inversion over the b3 bass) it is not entirely effective. Preceding the requested chords with  Im and IVm helps.  But in general VII is not an effective beginning harmony to such a progression.

Offline musallio

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2008, 03:43:30 PM »
rspindy has hit again!!!

Man, i (we) value your contribution here..
This goes to show how much indepth 1 has to go.
Now I'll stop approaching questions like a babe :-\

But 1st I have to learn the whole jargon ;D

cool stuff 8)
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Offline T-Block

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2008, 07:17:06 AM »
In answer to the question I would have to say that, there is a succession of chords possible following the 7-3-6-2-5-1 pattern, but as it stands, without at some point actually leaving the patteren (such as Im in first inversion over the b3 bass) it is not entirely effective. Preceding the requested chords with  Im and IVm helps.  But in general VII is not an effective beginning harmony to such a progression.

This is basically the point I was trying to get across.  What point is there having a minor 7-3-6-2-5-1 if it isn't very effective in music?  I will take back my statement that there aren't minor progressions though.  It's just hard for me to think minor alone w/out the major scale for reference, which is what I think Ray J was trying to do.
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Offline Fingers!

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2008, 11:01:32 AM »
Great topic.  I thing I get what you guys are saying.  Major is stand-alone, minor isn't.  It can be imagined as a stand-alone.  But it really isn't.  In other words, without major, there's no minor.  Is that what you're saying?

I'm a portrait artist.  This sounds familiar to what I do.  Primary colors (red, yellow, blue) are stand-alones, pure, top of the chart.  You can't mix anything to get them.  ALL other colors derive from those three.  No matter how deep I get involved in secondary (mix of 2 primary to get a new color, like orange) and/or tertiary (mixing sec) colors, when I do alterations to color texture and hues, I still have to think of the 3 primary colors. 

Now, I can train myself to do things from habit and NOT think of the Big 3,  but that doesn't mean I just divorced from them and I'm now dealing with some new process.  The process ITSELF reference to the Big 3,  I might not, but the process does, with me or without me... Strange analogy.

My approach to music is sort of building on the same structure.

Offline T-Block

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2008, 11:18:39 AM »
Great topic.  I thing I get what you guys are saying.  Major is stand-alone, minor isn't.  It can be imagined as a stand-alone.  But it really isn't.  In other words, without major, there's no minor.  Is that what you're saying?

That's exactly what I'm saying.
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drums2keys

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2008, 11:25:26 AM »
you can do a 7 3 6 2 5 1 minor progression if you know what you doing it will sound crazy lolololol. im gonna do it

Offline musallio

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2008, 11:45:06 AM »
That's exactly what I'm saying.

I agree totally with that ;)
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Offline lordluvr

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2008, 05:25:45 PM »
Man, I need to come to this forum more often!  You guys are off the hook with crazy knowledge.  Just because I've been playing for 5+ years, I'm not even going to front like I know anything.  :D  Good stuff guys.

Offline chevonee

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Re: Question???????
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2008, 06:54:43 PM »
Man, I need to come to this forum more often!  You guys are off the hook with crazy knowledge.  Just because I've been playing for 5+ years, I'm not even going to front like I know anything.  :D  Good stuff guys.
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