How is this a Db13??

[rEaLiTy|cHecK]

Hey Realityl Check, welcome to the RLGM.

I dn't know what my seniors here have to say about you stepping on their toes..
All I gotta say is: sharpen your WMR (Weapons of Mass Revolution) coz they'll come hard on U

LOL thanks! i'm not tryin to start ne arguments, just wanted to shed some light on one of the few things i know anything about lol

[musallio]

Some people are more anal about it than others.  As long as you have a convincing argument, I'm cool with "battling", LOL.
[/quote]

fo sho
helps us beginners to develop our analytical skills

[musallio]

LOL thanks! i'm not tryin to start ne arguments, just wanted to shed some light on one of the few things i know anything about lol

i know brada..U'r adding more value to the Republic.
a Reality Check is always welcome

[darkwing]

If you're not including the 3rd, then I'd call this a Db13sus.  The sus indicates to leave out the third and use the 11th (or 4th).  So all the notes included would be:  Db, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb.  Thus eliminating the clash between the 3rd and the 11th (or 4th).

If you are including the 3rd (which you didn't in your spelling), then I would call this a Db13 by the "rule" that all notes below the highest extension named may be played.  So all the notes that can be used to construct a Db13 are:  Db, F, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb.  Considering that this includes every note in the scale, it's quite rare that a "true" Db13 chord is every played because it is so challenging to make all of these notes sound good together.

After a long debate (which musallio alluded to), I came up with two "rules" to define my use of chord symbols:

1)  An extension outside of parenthesis indicates that any chord tone below it may be used unless the word "sus" appears, in which case the 3rd is replaced with the 11th.

2)  Tones inside parenthesis are to be added to the existing chord that is outside the parenthesis.

Here are some examples:

C9(13) - C, E, G, Bb, D, A
C7(11) - C, E, G, Bb, F
C7(#5,13) - C, E, G#, Bb, A
C9sus - C, G, Bb, D, F

My goal with these "rules" is two-fold - To eliminate any confusion and to use as few symbols as possible.  What I used to call C13, I now call C7(13) or C9(13), because the first reason is always the most important - Eliminate confusion.

And, of course, I'm sure that over time I will refine my "rules" even more.   

[musallio]

Thanx 4 clarifying yourself Darkwing.
I get U loud and clear.

It's a neat way of presenting chords.

However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:

The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost ]).

I know U & T-Block have had a big debate in the "Cool Chords" section about this issue.

Do U mind stating your case again
(Sorry 4 that, that's me going Blep )

[B3Wannabe]

Thanx 4 clarifying yourself Darkwing.
I get U loud and clear.

It's a neat way of presenting chords.

However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:

The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost ]).

I know U & T-Block have had a big debate in the "Cool Chords" section about this issue.

Do U mind stating your case again
(Sorry 4 that, that's me going Blep )

I would try to explain it, but I don't think I could explain my method effectively using this forum. It would probably sound complicated.

[musallio]

I would try to explain it, but I don't think I could explain my method effectively using this forum. It would probably sound complicated.

Try..U'll never know what might come of it

This is also a platform 4 U 2 fine-tune your presentation skills

[sjonathan02]

If you're not including the 3rd, then I'd call this a Db13sus.  The sus indicates to leave out the third and use the 11th (or 4th).  So all the notes included would be:  Db, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb.  Thus eliminating the clash between the 3rd and the 11th (or 4th).

If you are including the 3rd (which you didn't in your spelling), then I would call this a Db13 by the "rule" that all notes below the highest extension named may be played.  So all the notes that can be used to construct a Db13 are:  Db, F, Ab, B, Eb, Gb, Bb.  Considering that this includes every note in the scale, it's quite rare that a "true" Db13 chord is every played because it is so challenging to make all of these notes sound good together.

After a long debate (which musallio alluded to), I came up with two "rules" to define my use of chord symbols:

1)  An extension outside of parenthesis indicates that any chord tone below it may be used unless the word "sus" appears, in which case the 3rd is replaced with the 11th.

2)  Tones inside parenthesis are to be added to the existing chord that is outside the parenthesis.

Here are some examples:

C9(13) - C, E, G, Bb, D, A
C7(11) - C, E, G, Bb, F
C7(#5,13) - C, E, G#, Bb, A
C9sus - C, G, Bb, D, F

My goal with these "rules" is two-fold - To eliminate any confusion and to use as few symbols as possible.  What I used to call C13, I now call C7(13) or C9(13), because the first reason is always the most important - Eliminate confusion.

And, of course, I'm sure that over time I will refine my "rules" even more.   

I can appreciate your "rules"; I just have one question: Must I play the 3rd in my LH?

I hate playing the 3rd (in my LH), unless I'm trying to use a tri-tone. I usually play the root and the 5th (it's just easier for me).

Now, I don't mind playing the 3rd (and it's extensions) in my RH.

[T-Block]

However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:

Musicians can't agree on certain things the same way people interpret the Bible in different ways.  Learning can be the same for everyone, but application can vary between individuals.  Music theory isn't an exact science, it is merely what works more often than not.  Just like the word theory, it is something that has been proven to work over and over again and can be applied to similar situations.

The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost ]).

Actually u need the root, 3rd, 7th, and anyone of those notes.  The 3rd is what gives the chord it's quality, major or minor.  So w/out it, you really don't have much of a chord.

[darkwing]

Thanx 4 clarifying yourself Darkwing.
I get U loud and clear.

It's a neat way of presenting chords.

However, what still baffles me is why can musicians not agree on a certain thing:

The 1st time I learn about 7th, 9th, 11ths, 13ths etc, I read that one only needs the Root, the 7th & any of the note you need to form (ie, 9th or 11th or 13th or 16th).
The author explained that there is no need for the 5th.
(I won't go into the 3rd because I've forgotten what he said about those [i was still very lost ]).

I know U & T-Block have had a big debate in the "Cool Chords" section about this issue.

Do U mind stating your case again
(Sorry 4 that, that's me going Blep )

Since the 3rd determines the most important quality of the chord (Major or minor) it is important that it is in the chord.  Unless you want to be ambiguous.  In the case of dominant chords, it is especially important because when combined with the 7th it creates an interval called a tritone that is very important to the sound of the chord.  So the 7th is also important.  On any dominant chord, altered or not, you are always safe just playing the root, 3rd and 7th.  In face, you can get away with just the 3rd and 7th, although it is ambiguous unless you have a bass player.  But ambiguity is fine, it creates tension.

[musallio]

Ok

Thank U very much Darkwing & T-Block.

Good thing I had forgotten what that author said about the 3rd.
Now U've opened my eyes 2 more stuff

(BTW, i like the way U explained the meaning of theory T-Block )

I am also so glad that U both agreed on the same thing (this time Darkwing did not stress the importance of the 5th in forming those big name chords).

[Darkwing: Thanx 4 re-inforcing what Wolfram said about dominant chords etc.]

My Conclusion:

given the information I have,
in order to form a 9th, 11th or 13th,
I only need :the ROOT, 3rd, 7th & "that other note".


Thanx guys..

[B3Wannabe]

Ok

Thank U very much Darkwing & T-Block.

Good thing I had forgotten what that author said about the 3rd.
Now U've opened my eyes 2 more stuff

(BTW, i like the way U explained the meaning of theory T-Block )

I am also so glad that U both agreed on the same thing (this time Darkwing did not stress the importance of the 5th in forming those big name chords).

[Darkwing: Thanx 4 re-inforcing what Wolfram said about dominant chords etc.]

My Conclusion:

given the information I have,
in order to form a 9th, 11th or 13th,
I only need :the ROOT, 3rd, 7th & "that other note".


Thanx guys..

Exactly.