What's the problem with different styles

[Marcus12]

This is something that I seem to always come across.  I was looking in one of the post in here just a minute ago, and I had to laugh. 

My question to everyone is PLEASE EXPLAIN THE PROBLEM WITH ADDING A "DIFFERENT" STYLE OF MUSIC TO WHAT WE ARE USE TO PLAYING.  It seems like some of the musicains in here are like my grandparents.  They are caught up in the tradition of gospel and the way they were brought up in the church.  I believe that your relationship is what's going to get you to heaven.  Now when it comes to using the words jazz, rock, bluegrass, polka.  Those are only words to describe (put it in a classification) the music.  It doesn't make the music what it is.  You have all different races.  I'm "black/African-American.  That is the word used to classify me.  It doesn't make me who I am. 

It seems like using anything other than GOSPEL MUSIC is like using a bad word.  Now I'm not trying to step on anybody's toe's.  But, what's the diffence between what you are playing in the church and what is being played in the world.  I mean other than the obvious.  I'm not saying take a secular song and make it a church song.  But what I'm saying is.....If you are playing those same chords that are in a Bobby Brown song, it seems as though you should not be able to play those chords!  Same thing with using jazz chords and all the other different styles of chords and music.  Not all of us sit back and say, "I want my music to sound like Beyonce's chord progressions." 

I'll be the first to admit.  I listen to all different styles of music.  A lot of people believe it's wrong and I can see how.  But for me, I know what I'm listening to it for.  I don't care anything for the lyrics.  I just want to understand different ways of playing and sounds and so forth.

I'm going to leave this one wide open for discussin.  I know there has got to be something that someone wants to say.  I just want everyone to know that I still love all ya'll, I am not the type of person that takes offense or gets upset by something that someone else believes or thinks.  I just hope that if I post a request, no one refuses to reply because it's "Marcus12" posting it.  lol.

[chevonee]

Let me be the first to say Marcus, that music is an expression and we all express ourselves in different ways just as you said. I myself enjoy listening to a little of everything...as long as it's not offensive. And what I mean by offensive is, I don't listen to music with cursing or name calling or any of the like....LOL. But I see where you are coming from with this post though. Everyone is different in what they like or don't like. I enjoy playing contemporary, traditional gospel, gospel jazz, or whatever but there are some who don't. You have to overlook somethings, if you know what I mean because there are some die-hard traditionalists and thats just the way it is....feel me? Let me see if you can guess how old I am.....I listen to a little Keith Sweat, Luther Vandross, Barry White, the old R Kelly, KC and JOJO, Usher, Tupak, old Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson.......bet you know how old I am now LOL  Then again I absolutely love my Hezekiah, John P Key, Clark Sisters, Israel, Donnie MCclurkin and the like. Oh yeah I love Missy Elliot too...LOL Boy these folks sho gone think I'm crazy for this post!!

[kinki]

i am also black. what i ment wuz i need to know how to play Gospel songs the way how ya'll play them for example Jamal Hartwell and others i mean them fat chords

[Marcus12]

Let me be the first to say Marcus, that music is an expression and we all express ourselves in different ways just as you said. I myself enjoy listening to a little of everything...as long as it's not offensive. And what I mean by offensive is, I don't listen to music with cursing or name calling or any of the like....LOL. But I see where you are coming from with this post though. Everyone is different in what they like or don't like. I enjoy playing contemporary, traditional gospel, gospel jazz, or whatever but there are some who don't. You have to overlook somethings, if you know what I mean because there are some die-hard traditionalists and thats just the way it is....feel me? Let me see if you can guess how old I am.....I listen to a little Keith Sweat, Luther Vandross, Barry White, the old R Kelly, KC and JOJO, Usher, Tupak, old Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson.......bet you know how old I am now LOL  Then again I absolutely love my Hezekiah, John P Key, Clark Sisters, Israel, Donnie MCclurkin and the like. Oh yeah I love Missy Elliot too...LOL Boy these folks sho gone think I'm crazy for this post!!

I'm glad that you responded.  And that's what I am talking about when I said I listen to all different styles of music.  I don't really listen to music that has profanity and talks down about anyone or race.  Because that is not something that I believe in.  But as far as the music behind lyrics.  I guess I have a special way to which I can sit there and listen to a whole song and not be able to tell you one word in the song, but I could tell you what key the song is played in, the different riffs and basslines and so forth.  I remember one time I was playing a song at church and did a lil cut from "Deja Vu" by Beyonce. After service I had people come to me and tell me I was wrong for doing that.  And my reply was why?  And if you are coming at me in the sense of the music isn't right, how do you know the song and why are you listening to it?

[sjonathan02]

I'm glad that you responded.  And that's what I am talking about when I said I listen to all different styles of music.  I don't really listen to music that has profanity and talks down about anyone or race.  Because that is not something that I believe in.  But as far as the music behind lyrics.  I guess I have a special way to which I can sit there and listen to a whole song and not be able to tell you one word in the song, but I could tell you what key the song is played in, the different riffs and basslines and so forth.  I remember one time I was playing a song at church and did a lil cut from "Deja Vu" by Beyonce. After service I had people come to me and tell me I was wrong for doing that.  And my reply was why?  And if you are coming at me in the sense of the music isn't right, how do you know the song and why are you listening to it?

The problem with this argument/debate is this: If you play a chord progression from a secular song (ANY secular song) that is recognizable to the listener, then you're wrong. Why?

Because you are putting up a stumbling block for that person to be able to receive the message that HOPEFULLY their trying to listen to in your 'gospel' song. I, for one, don't appreciate my gospel sounding like Jill Scott and the like.

It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.


Yea, a 6-2-5-1 is a 6-2-5-1, in theory; BUT, it's how you APPLY it that makes ALL the difference.


Besides, why would you want your gospel to sound like Corrine Bailey Rae; I mean, what's the point?

[PianoWizard]

Welcome to the LGM Family "kinki".....Be Blessed.

PianoWiz...

[Marcus12]

Yea, a 6-2-5-1 is a 6-2-5-1, in theory; BUT, it's how you APPLY it that makes ALL the difference.

I totally agree with you!  You are basically saying the same thing that I am trying to say.  Hopefully, no one thinks that I am saying take a Usher song (the music) and turn it into a gospel/church song.  All I am saying is.  Let's say that there is a part in a secular song that is in your opinion a nice little cut/part.   And you play that part in a song that is sang in a song you do for Praise & Worship.  I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. 

If you know your intent and what you are using it for, where is the problem.  Sure you can have people in the service that haven't accept the Lord into their lives, and are still out there in the world and listen to secular music.  I don't think a musician, by playing a part from a secular song, is confusing that or those indivuals.  What confuses the unsaved about the church is honestly us!   There are so many different types of us.  We are suppose to be one body and be in unity.  "So why does this chuch allow you to where jeans, and that church says wearing jeans to church is not of God."  God is not a confusing God.  But WE!! make it seem like He is.  People add their believes with the Word of God.  And that's not right!

Someone please tell me where in the bible it says you have/should where a suit to church?  These are the types of things I am referring to.  I know it doesn't seem like it's on the same topic.  But to me, in a way it is.

[sjonathan02]

I totally agree with you!  You are basically saying the same thing that I am trying to say.  Hopefully, no one thinks that I am saying take a Usher song (the music) and turn it into a gospel/church song.  All I am saying is.  Let's say that there is a part in a secular song that is in your opinion a nice little cut/part.   And you play that part in a song that is sang in a song you do for Praise & Worship.  I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. 

If you know your intent and what you are using it for, where is the problem.  Sure you can have people in the service that haven't accept the Lord into their lives, and are still out there in the world and listen to secular music.  I don't think a musician, by playing a part from a secular song, is confusing that or those indivuals.  What confuses the unsaved about the church is honestly us!   There are so many different types of us.  We are suppose to be one body and be in unity.  "So why does this chuch allow you to where jeans, and that church says wearing jeans to church is not of God."  God is not a confusing God.  But WE!! make it seem like He is.  People add their believes with the Word of God.  And that's not right!

Someone please tell me where in the bible it says you have/should where a suit to church?  These are the types of things I am referring to.  I know it doesn't seem like it's on the same topic.  But to me, in a way it is.

You missed this part:

It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.

Besides, why would you want your gospel to sound like Corrine Bailey Rae; I mean, what's the point?

That was my point. As far as the suit thing goes, it's a different topic altogether. But, I'll say this, wearing your jeans all saggy and whatnot is NOT of God; point blank and period.

[Ramar]

 It totally depends on the individual's convictions and the spirit of the individual, and also the song that is being played... there are some people who play Lil Jon music in church with the intent of bringing the club atmosphere in the church. They might want to get the church "crunk", so they play that type of music... and the problem with that is that if you look around the church you will often see some of the young folks doing worldly dances, because that type of music teaches them that it is okay to do that... on the other hand... It can have advantages... I played R. Kelly's "happy people" in the church during offering.. and it helped usher in the spirit of joy in the church... people were gettin excited-both young and old... people began to praise God and get happy... and no--they weren't shaking their butts or doing worldly dances, they were standing and clapping, shouting and praising God- I played the song in the right spirit- I wanted to spread joy, besides the song is not vulgar at all, nor does it have any sexually explicit or offensive lyrics. But as I stated before it depends on the individuals convictions-- some people can do it without feeling bad, and some people's conscience wont allow it. Also we must be sensitive to others in the church... If there are some in the church that are offended, and you know that they are offended, then please don't do it-- you are sewing discord among the people, and that's not what Christians are to do

The thing about music is that it has the power to evoke emotion-- It can make you cry or laugh, it can make you cheerful or depressed, it can make you angry or any other type of emotion. The spirit and feelings of an individual can be captured in a few chords or in a simple melody... there are often times where worldly musicians will play just the right notes to give a gospel artist the chills... ( I ain't the only one in here who loved the "circle of life" from the Lion King)... those very chords/melody may be exactly what the artist needs to get his message across... Believe it or not, it IS possible to listen to worldly music just because of the music and not the words... it's not possible for everybody but it is possible for many... often times, myself included, people listen to worldly music and just wish it were made for gospel-- we can even come up with the perfect lyrics, the perfect harmonies, and ideas for the song that would just blow the original song out the water!!!! So when an artist does play a bar or two of a worldly song, don't blast him/her... it may have been exactly what the musician needed to express himself/herself... and if it does offend you-- remember... you DON'T HAVE to listen to it... it may not be for you, it could be for someone else to listen to and feel the power of God!!! God Bless You!!!
 
 
 

[Spyda1989]

The problem with this argument/debate is this: If you play a chord progression from a secular song (ANY secular song) that is recognizable to the listener, then you're wrong. Why?

Because you are putting up a stumbling block for that person to be able to receive the message that HOPEFULLY their trying to listen to in your 'gospel' song. I, for one, don't appreciate my gospel sounding like Jill Scott and the like.

It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.


Yea, a 6-2-5-1 is a 6-2-5-1, in theory; BUT, it's how you APPLY it that makes ALL the difference.


Besides, why would you want your gospel to sound like Corrine Bailey Rae; I mean, what's the point?

It's getting harder each day to avoid that though, because secular artists are startig to get a more gospel like feel. They're using the worship chord progressions because they help free and ease one's soul. The artist Sammie has a song called "Come With Me". Look it up. Listen to it. If that doesn't have church origins then what does?! Music is music. I may want to play some chords from Earth Wind & Fire in church or some Angie Stone or D'Angelo, but then again it's up to me to change it up enough that no one's frame of mind can slip off into the world. I you cannot label the music as "seular" the words you put to it make it that. So it's fine. Listen to R&B, some jazz, etc. You're a musician and you're listening for the musicality of the music.

Spyda

[sjonathan02]

It's getting harder each day to avoid that though, because secular artists are startig to get a more gospel like feel. They're using the worship chord progressions because they help free and ease one's soul. The artist Sammie has a song called "Come With Me". Look it up. Listen to it. If that doesn't have church origins then what does?! Music is music. I may want to play some chords from Earth Wind & Fire in church or some Angie Stone or D'Angelo, but then again it's up to me to change it up enough that no one's frame of mind can slip off into the world. I you cannot label the music as "seular" the words you put to it make it that. So it's fine. Listen to R&B, some jazz, etc. You're a musician and you're listening for the musicality of the music.

Spyda

It's amazing that in your non-paragraphed essay, you agreed AND disagreed with me at the same time.

Welcome to LGM.


Why does a newbie find it necessary to come at the guy with the most posts on the board?

[PianoWizard]

Welcome to the LGM Family "Spyda1989".....Be Blessed.

PianoWiz...

[Spyda1989]

haha. thank you both

Spyda

[jlc4703]

Different views on this subject have been held literally for centuries. When the church first started using "modes" of music (supposedly they came from ancient Greece), one "mode" (the Locrican) was forbidden - the scale was considered "musica diabolo" - music of the devil.

According to his own writings, everything composed by J. S. Bach was "to the glory of God," yet Bach frequently adapted tunes heard in the local beergarden into his church music.

Technically, there is a finite (although large) number of possible progressions in a song of a certain length - a way of saying that there is not an unlimited different number of "12-bar blues" that can be done.

I personally broke over 200 secular LP records that I owned about a year after getting saved. For a time, I listened only to songs about God and praise. After some spiritual growth, especially when I began to play an instrument, I began to listen to some types of secular music again. There are some types of music that I refuse to listen to - such things as death metal, punk, gangsta rap - music that drags down a person's spirit (there is also a lot of very soothing, syrupy sounding music that has just plain got a WRONG spirit).

I play bass and synth in our church band. One of our challenges is to not let ourselves and the church get "stuck" in any tradition of man. I had the blessing 30 years ago of a trip to Israel during the Feast of Tabernacles, and was able to meet believers from over a hundred different countries - so many different styles of worship and of music. The old church hymns wouldn't still be being sung and played if they had been empty of content (though people CAN sing them just out of tradition instead of hearing the words in their spirits). Some contemporary music is great, other is not so good - kinda like eating nothing at all except Krispy Kremes. Same way for gospel music - does it bring the listener closer to the Throne of Grace or not, that is the test.

Our church has been used to introduce other churches in the regional Association to new and different styles - they hold a choral sing each year. Two years ago, we sang a-capella because the association did not want us to sing backed by our band (no other church even thought of using anything except either piano or CD track); last Sunday night, there were five churches using bands including ours. But the most important thing - our pastor reported this morning that many people from outside our church had complimented us - that the Holy Spirit was present and welcome in our singing.  The high points of the sing to me were the Korean church - hearing a familiar hymn but in Korean rather than English, and the amount of change in the music of two of the more traditional churches - the power of God breaking down the traditions of man.

[THE WOLFMAN]

It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.

then vets know where i am with this, so i'll keep it quiet.

but................

Peep Israel's "Who Is Like the Lord" ----Evvvverybody love israel, right?

There's a piece of Janet's "what have you done for me lately", and Joe Cocker's "woman to woman"(better knows as Tupac's "California Love")

***walks out whistling MJ's "Wanna be Startin Somethin"***

[sjonathan02]

then vets know where i am with this, so i'll keep it quiet.

but................

Peep Israel's "Who Is Like the Lord" ----Evvvverybody love israel, right?

There's a piece of Janet's "what have you done for me lately", and Joe Cocker's "woman to woman"(better knows as Tupac's "California Love")

***walks out whistling MJ's "Wanna be Startin Somethin"***

I've got you. For me, with the way Israel incorporates that Joe Cocker song, I'm NOT thinking about Joe or Tupac while I'm listening to that song. THAT'S the difference.

Honestly, it took me a minute before I recognized it. That's my WHOLE point.

There are cats who'll incorporate other songs into their playing and you can pick it up immediately and start singing the SECULAR song; it's crazy.


And, HECK YEA, everybody loves Israel. About to cop his new joint this Tuesday.

[T-Block]

then vets know where i am with this, so i'll keep it quiet.

but................

Peep Israel's "Who Is Like the Lord" ----Evvvverybody love israel, right?

There's a piece of Janet's "what have you done for me lately", and Joe Cocker's "woman to woman"(better knows as Tupac's "California Love")

***walks out whistling MJ's "Wanna be Startin Somethin"***

EXACTLY, they also got another song where they break into the Biggie beat "Crush On You", it might the same song u talking about.  I knew that beat as soon as I heard it.

Honestly, it took me a minute before I recognized it. That's my WHOLE point.

Well sjon, I reconized it instantly, does that still make it o.k.?

[BassbyGrace]

Actually I dont dig it.  I mean I listen to alot of diff music, but I separate what goes in to service.  I dont even like when ppl do stuff like what was just mentioned.  I saw a group on Youtube singing some gospel song.  I say some because I cant even remember it because they took Deborah Cox's "Nobody Supposed to be Here" and redid the WHOLE thing.  I hate that because I feel that if we are God's ppl, we can DEFINITELY be more creative.  Same thing with Joe Pace's "Glorify-actually EWF's Thats the Way" I was like, come on mannnn.  How you feel is how you feel, but I choose to keep them separated.  Just because you okay with it doesnt mean everyone can deal with it. 

Funny but true story:  Sitting in church...service is going on...about to be PASTORIAL PRAYER.  Keyboardist breaks out a familiar secular progession.  Musicians groovin it, all of a sudden you hear from a pew or two back, a bunch of kids go "T shirt and my panties onnnnnnnnn".     Funny, but you get the point.

[uriahsmusic]

1st Corinthians chapter 9 ...start at vs 20...(the whole chapter make a great point but vs 20 to 23  then vs 27 hit it on the head!)

.... 20  And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

   21  To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

   22  To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

   23  And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

   24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

   25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

   26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

   27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

my take on this!

Ya see the point of this scripture is that if you wanna play hip hop to get the hip hoppers then there is scripture for that!....But almost 100% of the time these clowns on instruments pretending to be ministers play their worldly repertoire with absolutely no intention to do anything but be cute and get a rise out of the carnal side of the congregation..."remember this jam!" 

Let's get real hear...the scripture above says it's ok...but they are speaking to real ministries that are trying to reach real lost folks! and vs 27 tells you how careful one must be.

...very few musicians came to play at church to get anybody saved...a matter of fact if it wasnt for pay they wouldn't even come!....So they should not be playing "name that tune" at the expense of the congregations souls!

[sjonathan02]

Actually I dont dig it.  I mean I listen to alot of diff music, but I separate what goes in to service.  I dont even like when ppl do stuff like what was just mentioned.  I saw a group on Youtube singing some gospel song.  I say some because I cant even remember it because they took Deborah Cox's "Nobody Supposed to be Here" and redid the WHOLE thing.  I hate that because I feel that if we are God's ppl, we can DEFINITELY be more creative.  Same thing with Joe Pace's "Glorify-actually EWF's Thats the Way" I was like, come on mannnn.  How you feel is how you feel, but I choose to keep them separated.  Just because you okay with it doesnt mean everyone can deal with it. 

Funny but true story:  Sitting in church...service is going on...about to be PASTORIAL PRAYER.  Keyboardist breaks out a familiar secular progession.  Musicians groovin it, all of a sudden you hear from a pew or two back, a bunch of kids go "T shirt and my panties onnnnnnnnn".     Funny, but you get the point.

AMEN!!!!

1st Corinthians chapter 9 ...start at vs 20...(the whole chapter make a great point but vs 20 to 23  then vs 27 hit it on the head!)

.... 20  And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

   21  To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

   22  To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

   23  And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

   24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

   25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

   26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

   27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

my take on this!

Ya see the point of this scripture is that if you wanna play hip hop to get the hip hoppers then there is scripture for that!....But almost 100% of the time these clowns on instruments pretending to be ministers play their worldly repertoire with absolutely no intention to do anything but be cute and get a rise out of the carnal side of the congregation..."remember this jam!" 

Let's get real hear...the scripture above says it's ok...but they are speaking to real ministries that are trying to reach real lost folks! and vs 27 tells you how careful one must be.

...very few musicians came to play at church to get anybody saved...a matter of fact if it wasnt for pay they wouldn't even come!....So they should not be playing "name that tune" at the expense of the congregations souls!

and AMEN, again!!!