LearnGospelMusic.com Community

Please login or register.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Enharmonic names  (Read 4774 times)

Offline Ladyn

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Female

Enharmonic names
« on: July 19, 2007, 03:13:48 PM »
Hello Everyone!

I have a question that I have been stuck on recently.  I was going through my book: Intros, Endings, and Turnarounds by John Novello, and he gives an example for an intro in the key of Eb that looks like this:

Imaj- bIIIdim7-IIm7-V7-I

Ok he names them like this:
Ebmaj 7- F#dim7-Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7

Ok, why does he use F# when there is a bIII? Wouldn't it be Gb instead? In the key of Eb the G is the 3rd right? So Why spell it using F#? Am I overthinking this or am I missing something when it comes to progressions?

Thanks for your help

Nichole

Offline sjonathan02

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 41575
  • Gender: Male
  • My heart

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2007, 04:34:48 PM »
Hello Everyone!

I have a question that I have been stuck on recently.  I was going through my book: Intros, Endings, and Turnarounds by John Novello, and he gives an example for an intro in the key of Eb that looks like this:

Imaj- bIIIdim7-IIm7-V7-I

Ok he names them like this:
Ebmaj 7- F#dim7-Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7

Ok, why does he use F# when there is a bIII? Wouldn't it be Gb instead? In the key of Eb the G is the 3rd right? So Why spell it using F#? Am I overthinking this or am I missing something when it comes to progressions?

Thanks for your help

Nichole


I don't think you're overthinking at all. I'd use Gb, as well because


a. you're in a key that uses flats in it's key signature
b. I like flats better  :D


BTW, that's a great example of an intro. Is the whole book like this and are you sure that's the name of the book and the author?
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline cas10a

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2007, 04:51:04 PM »
I like flats better also...

But in Eb the flatted notes would be Eb, Ab, & Bb in the Key signature.

I always thought the F# is written as # because it doesn't exist in the signature...easier to read 

Maybe I'm wrong... ?/?.  I'd have to look it up.

Offline sjonathan02

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 41575
  • Gender: Male
  • My heart

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2007, 05:00:29 PM »
I like flats better also...

But in Eb the flatted notes would be Eb, Ab, & Bb in the Key signature.

I always thought the F# is written as # because it doesn't exist in the signature...easier to read 

Maybe I'm wrong... ?/?.  I'd have to look it up.


That IS interesting. It would stand out. Not bad, cas10.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline cas10a

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2007, 05:23:40 PM »

That IS interesting. It would stand out. Not bad, cas10.

Now, I'm curious if my reasoning is the real reason...I'll keep looking, but I can't find anything on accidentals that sais you have to use a sharp or flat because of the Key signature.  Maybe it has to do with the pitch diff between F# and Gb or something to do with history.  If someone has the facts...let me know.

Offline Ladyn

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Female

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2007, 06:46:42 PM »
I like flats better also...

But in Eb the flatted notes would be Eb, Ab, & Bb in the Key signature.

I always thought the F# is written as # because it doesn't exist in the signature...easier to read 

Maybe I'm wrong... ?/?.  I'd have to look it up.

Hmmm, maybe this is it, but I am still confused then because a Gb is not in the key signature either and if you are saying sub the bIII then it should read Gb.  I like flats better too.   


Sjonathan: Yes the whole book is like this!!! YOu can find it at Amazon.com.  It is called: Intros, Endings, and Turnarounds.  You have to be able to read music some at least to understand, but he uses Roman numerals so you can play the progressions even if you don't read well.  I really like it a lot. 



Offline sjonathan02

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 41575
  • Gender: Male
  • My heart

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2007, 07:27:26 PM »
Hmmm, maybe this is it, but I am still confused then because a Gb is not in the key signature either and if you are saying sub the bIII then it should read Gb.  I like flats better too.   


Sjonathan: Yes the whole book is like this!!! YOu can find it at Amazon.com.  It is called: Intros, Endings, and Turnarounds.  You have to be able to read music some at least to understand, but he uses Roman numerals so you can play the progressions even if you don't read well.  I really like it a lot. 


First, I was just talking about the fact that (b's) are in the Key Signature for Eb, not that Gb was in the scale (it's simply the flatted third).

Second, I tried to find the book on Amazon, but the name of the author was different. Perhaps you could send me a link.  ;)


Thanks.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline cas10a

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2007, 08:47:50 PM »
Hmmm, maybe this is it, but I am still confused then because a Gb is not in the key signature either and if you are saying sub the bIII then it should read Gb.  I like flats better too.   


Sjonathan: Yes the whole book is like this!!! YOu can find it at Amazon.com.  It is called: Intros, Endings, and Turnarounds.  You have to be able to read music some at least to understand, but he uses Roman numerals so you can play the progressions even if you don't read well.  I really like it a lot. 


I understand what SJ is saying...

Look at it like this...the bIII is just notation, it could mean by the author, flat, sharp, or natural depending on the key.

It may be easier to read an accidental as a sharp in the key of Eb, but I don't think it matters which one you use.

We all prefer flats...lol

Offline Ladyn

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Female

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 09:25:13 PM »
Sjonathan the reason you can't find the book is because I gave you the wrong author, it is John Valerio.  I am having trouble posting the link :o It's probably just me.  http://www.amazon.com/Intros-Endings-Turnarounds-Keyboard-Essential/dp/0634023012/ref=sr_1_2/102-0402074-5597727?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184897674&sr=8-2

Quote
First, I was just talking about the fact that (b's) are in the Key Signature for Eb, not that Gb was in the scale (it's simply the flatted third).


Oh Ok! I see. 

Offline sjonathan02

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 41575
  • Gender: Male
  • My heart

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 10:08:32 PM »
Sjonathan the reason you can't find the book is because I gave you the wrong author, it is John Valerio.  I am having trouble posting the link :o It's probably just me.  http://www.amazon.com/Intros-Endings-Turnarounds-Keyboard-Essential/dp/0634023012/ref=sr_1_2/102-0402074-5597727?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184897674&sr=8-2

Oh Ok! I see. 




Yea, I thought the author was wrong. I did see that book. I may have to pick it up.  ;)
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline rspindy

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 132

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2007, 10:25:41 AM »
Hello Everyone!

I have a question that I have been stuck on recently.  I was going through my book: Intros, Endings, and Turnarounds by John Novello, and he gives an example for an intro in the key of Eb that looks like this:

Imaj- bIIIdim7-IIm7-V7-I

Ok he names them like this:
Ebmaj 7- F#dim7-Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7

Ok, why does he use F# when there is a bIII? Wouldn't it be Gb instead? In the key of Eb the G is the 3rd right? So Why spell it using F#? Am I overthinking this or am I missing something when it comes to progressions?

Thanks for your help

Nichole

Hey Nicole and everyone,

Technically and theoretically the correct name should be Gb.  The bIII is acting as an upper "leaning tone" to the II (or F in this case).  Like the "leading tone" of a scale which leads by 1/2 step up to the resolution, this is creating a strong pull down to the II (or the F).  There are several theoretical explanations which get too convoluted for here.

The problem lies in the fact that people are not often careful about naming diminished, augmented, and even added 6th chords correctly.  Therefore they often use the "enharmonic" name.  This is unfortunate because if you are learning a pattern like the above in all keys, Using the correct name in some keys and the enharmonic name in others muddles the actual pattern.   Learning the above pattern in C, you would name the chords C Eb D G C not C D# D G C.

One reason for this is to avoid the use of double flats or double sharps.   If the Gb dim were notated on the staff, it would be spelled Gb Bbb Dbb Fbb (yuk).  In the key of Gb you end up with Gb  *Bbb dim* Ab Db Gb the Bbb dim being the same as an Adim, which many would opt for in notation since it is clearer to read quickly.  In the key of F# it would be F#  Adim G# C# F# which has its own problems with the G# min.  Of course rarely will a chord chart or lead sheet be written in the keys of Gb or F#.   This is the result of a 500 year old notation system that was not designed for the extreme chromaticism that we have available today.

The question is, does it matter which name you give a chord or note that has more than one possible name?  Yes and no.  Yes, because if you are trying to understand the theory and learn progression patterns or scale patterns, then you might miss the fact that a certain pattern is happening (Eb F# F -- I #II II -- looks different on paper from Eb Gb F -- I bIII II).  Later, this can affect how you think about chord substitutions).  It also helps to identify the actual musical intent. 

No because particularly in sightreading, the enharmonic spelling for some chords may be easier to grasp quickly.  I would much rather see A dim7 than Bbb dim7 on a lead sheet of an unfamiliar tune.  This free substitution of enharmonic spellings has been going on for 2 to 3 centuries so it is nothing new.

My suggestion is, if you are working on patterns of some sort (progressions, scale patterns, etc.) always try to determine the spelling that fits the pattern (even if it becomes something weird like a Bbb dim7) that way the pattern remains consistent in all keys.  In the cases of weird chords like that Bbb dim7, keep in mind that it will probably be notated as an A dim7 on chord charts and lead sheets.  If you are writing a set of chords down for yourself or someone else, notate the easier way when necessary and in brackets write the actual chord to help remind you of the actual pattern.

I hope this helps.

Offline Ladyn

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Female

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2007, 11:29:10 AM »



Rspindy: Thank YOu!!!!
Yes, this does help. I am trying to really understand the progressions and the function of each chord in it so that I can do it in any key.  It always confuses me and takes me a while to decipher what is going on sometimes if a person hands me something that spells something wrong.  I prefer understanding what I am doing and WHY I am doing it.   Thank you soo much for clearing this up for me.  I agree that an enharmonic spelling at times is easier to grasp, but I will be using the correct spelling for myself. 

For example: the praise and worship team at my church asked me to interpret a lead sheet that used the Nashville number system.  This song modulates three times from F-Gb-G.  When they got to the key of Gb I used the correct spelling for Cb, No one knew that exsisted :o, so I changed it to B, and they all said Ok and looked at me as if I had two heads. :D  So I have definitely learned my lesson there.  Again I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me in such a way that I can understand it!

Nichole

Offline rspindy

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 132

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2007, 12:31:54 PM »
I am glad that that helped, Nicole.

You hit an important issue on the head.  More people than not do not grasp the idea of "theoretical" keys and chords.  By this I mean the real existence of a chord like Bbb dim7 or the the key of G# major (which would include F##).  Granted, these keys show up in very complex chromatic music (particularly with people like Liszt and Wagner) and often get respelled enharmonically for obvious reasons, but they do exist and recognizing the possibility can affect how one understands the make-up of certain pieces.

To you and everyone else, I am going to post a thread that discusses the four types of chords with name problems that can cause confusion and a solution that will get you through a good portion of it.  As always, music is an art so few "rules" are hard and fast, but a few "rules of thumb" can help solve a majority of the problems.

Scott

Offline B3Wannabe

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9331
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2007, 12:41:21 PM »
I am glad that that helped, Nicole.

You hit an important issue on the head.  More people than not do not grasp the idea of "theoretical" keys and chords.  By this I mean the real existence of a chord like Bbb dim7 or the the key of G# major (which would include F##).  Granted, these keys show up in very complex chromatic music (particularly with people like Liszt and Wagner) and often get respelled enharmonically for obvious reasons, but they do exist and recognizing the possibility can affect how one understands the make-up of certain pieces.

To you and everyone else, I am going to post a thread that discusses the four types of chords with name problems that can cause confusion and a solution that will get you through a good portion of it.  As always, music is an art so few "rules" are hard and fast, but a few "rules of thumb" can help solve a majority of the problems.

Scott


Sweet!

Yep, I've seen classical music in keys like that.


Sjonathan the reason you can't find the book is because I gave you the wrong author, it is John Valerio.  I am having trouble posting the link :o It's probably just me.  http://www.amazon.com/Intros-Endings-Turnarounds-Keyboard-Essential/dp/0634023012/ref=sr_1_2/102-0402074-5597727?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184897674&sr=8-2

Oh Ok! I see. 


Yea, I thought the author was wrong. I did see that book. I may have to pick it up.  ;)


I have that very same book. It's pretty good.

Offline cas10a

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2007, 01:42:26 PM »
Thanks for the great answer Rspindy...

Be Blessed

Offline T-Block

  • Moderator
  • LGM Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 17289
  • Gender: Male
  • I got my MBA!!!

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2007, 05:07:58 PM »
All this can be avoided if people just learn "all" the notes, not just the ones used the most.  One day, this is gonna sink in.

Oh yeah, and thanks rspindy for those wonderful words of wisdom.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline cas10a

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2007, 11:40:59 AM »
All this can be avoided if people just learn "all" the notes, not just the ones used the most.  One day, this is gonna sink in.

Oh yeah, and thanks rspindy for those wonderful words of wisdom.

T what are you talkn 'bout...I don't think "learning all the notes" was ever the question :D.  The question was, whether it matters if you notate an accidental as F# or Gb in the key of Eb?...well at least that was my question.  The original question had to do with an authors notation of a chord progression bIII and then naming the chord F# in Eb which we now know was incorrect.  I'm just messin' with you Bruh...don't get upset...I know what you saying. ;) ;D

Offline Ladyn

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Female

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2007, 10:02:21 AM »
Cas10A: I think TBlock may have been referring to my other post about the P&W team not knowing what a Cb was.
 ;)

Offline cas10a

  • LGM Royalty
  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Gender: Male

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2007, 10:33:28 AM »
Cas10A: I think TBlock may have been referring to my other post about the P&W team not knowing what a Cb was.
 ;)

Yea...I did see that...I was just messin' with him, because he didn't say what he was talking about.  It was a broad statement. I got his point though... :)

Offline rspindy

  • LGM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 132

Re: Enharmonic names
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2007, 11:24:37 AM »
Speaking of all of the possible names for different keys on the keyboard and because I obviously have too much time on my hands  ::), it occurred to me that every key but one has three possible names.  Some are rarer than others, of course, but they exist, particularly in transposition of highly chromatic music.

here they are:

C = Bb = Dbb
C# = B## = Db
D = C## = Ebb
D# = Eb = Fbb
E = D## = Fb
F = E# = Gbb
F# = E## = Gb
G = F## = Abb
G# = Ab *the one with only two names
A = G## = Bbb
A# = Bb = Cbb
B = Cb = A##

Pages: [1] 2   Go Up