playing by ear versus theory Again!!!!1

[diverse379]

Hey I thought it was time to revisit this discussion especially since I have gottem a lot more theory under my belt
and my ear is much better.
Maybe I will be able to put a different spin on things.

last year I remember I thought that playing by ear provided a slight advantage to theory
this year I still maintain that position

that is not to say that I believe that people shouldnt place emphasis on theory
by all means I am not saying that

I think that is what confused people last year
they should know as much theory as I know why on earth would I tell people not to learn theory.


what I am saying is that the best teacher apart from the Holy Spirit is
to just use your ear and learn songs from records
do your best eventually your best will get better.

lets list some advantages of each and let you be the judge


Theory                                         Playing by ear
allows you to write chord charts       you can  play along with someone reading from a chart
can play from a chord chart               you can get the record and learn the song from their
you can analyze music  theoretically     you can analyze music aurally
the best composers knew theory          the best composers played by ear
you can learn anything you read            you can learn anything you hear
far too few gospel sheet music               tons of recordings
allows you to communicate to other         most ear players cant communicate in music terms
theory musicians 
you will be very versatile                       you can be versatile but if you are not careful
                                                         you can keep yourself bound in a box

you can write out what you play               sometimes you will forget what you have done
so you wont forget       
theory takes a long time to learn                 ear players learn quickly
theory players usually learn more thoroughly       ear playes depending on their ear can learn
                                                                   just as thoroughly




so far it seems that there is more weight going to the theory side
but there is ohe very important ingredient that theiory really cannot teach and that is
feel feel can really only be learned by listening
and it is from listening that you can learn how to put the feel into your music

and one more thing
from learning music by ear it somehow becomes more a part of you that intellectually learning music can never give you.


trust me I have been an itntellectiual player a lot longer then I have been an ear player
and I have to admit that there are more rewards musicanship wise from the learning by aural media and developing the ear
then you can get from theory.

the best approach is to learn how to balance both
but as you learn the theory put twice as much time in developing your ear
because when it comes down to it   It is the ear seperates the great musicians from the just good musicians
rarely is it theory that makes one rise to the top of the heap.

I hope I gave you all something to think ab out

[darkwing]

I think a combination of the two is best, but if I had to choose, I think I would choose theory.  I just like to understand what's going on.

[T-Block]

I think a combination of the two is best, but if I had to choose, I think I would choose theory.  I just like to understand what's going on.

CO-SIGN!!!

[Craig G]

Yeah, I think a combination of the two is the best.  I mean, you can hear di and tr-tones all day long, and know 'em the instant you hear 'em, but to know HOW they are structured is perhaps more key.

I would lean towards theory only because piano isn't my first instrument, and I had to know some basic elements of theory before I even touched a keyboard.

Good topic diverse.

[morrism357]

I totally disagree with almost everyone. As I know from experience and have  posted in the past theory without a workable ear is useless. Knowing scales, chord formulas and progressions is useless if you can't hear them in a song. I can name reasonably well all scales, chords, progressions I completely understand the technical aspects of music. But I can't figure out one song by ear. I struggle badly, too, just pick out single finger melodies. The only thing that has really improved my ear was too take singing lessons which have given me much more hope.

I can now match pitch and sing to an accompaniment things that have always been a struggle. Most play by ear training and teaching seem to assume the student already has a strong ear and all they need is the theory. Look at Hear and Plays web site advertisemnt while they do have good ideas. They dump a bunch of theory and progressions on you and think you'll just remember what the progressions sound like. But they do very little in training the ear. In fact at most muscician web sites it is the least talked about part of music.

The answer is easy teaching theory and technique are much easier than teaching the ear. I would love to sing or back someone up on the keyboard with no music. But I haven't been able to do it. Even though I understand chords. I have no idea what chord to play a 1,5,4,6 which chord fits.

Now give me a lead sheet and I can through all kinds of chords into by my theory knowledge. This is a subject I would love to hear more of . This is the MAIN REASON for so many chord request.

Let the debate begin.

[diverse379]

I think you said the right things but for the wrong reasons
or you said the wrong things for the right reason,.

I think that the ear is really more about deep listening then anything else.

When I was at school last semester one of my professors was Damien sneed
the music director for Twinkie Clark

I was one of his advanced students on the advanced track in the jazz theory course

what he had me do all semester was take apart songs on the live in charlotte album

some of the songs required real patient and diligent listening.

this sort of skill is every bit as important as understanding chord charts and the like

to be honest the theory necessary to read a chord chart can be learned in a relatively short period of time.

and when people talk about theory i am not sure that they are all talking about the same thing.

I will be spending the next few years working on my masters and bachelors in classical and jazz theory.

but this program also places huge emphasis on ear training and chord recognition.

so it it is an oxymoron to speak about thoery without also speaking about the ear.

every college level music course requres that you take ear training along with your theory classes

and it is a well known fact that a good ear will elevate your improvisation
and composition skills

so when i see people say they would rather lern the theory i actually have to shake my head
becuase i am not sure they really understand what theya re saying

no offennse to my friends who have responded to this post.

but the reality is that developing the ear is as much a part of theory as the numerical and chord structure rules and other things

what theory does teach is how different genres handled composition
what ear training teaches is how to hear these techniques and the building blocks of harmony in terms of rhythmn and melody and harmony

I dont think it really is a debate not for those who really understand

theory and ear go hand in hand
if I had to take my choice between an impecable ear and a bunch of theory i would probably pick the ear because it would lead me beyond the confines of theoretcial content

theory tells you what people have done
the ear can tell you what people are doing


but on the other hand i am more than happy i know theory
I am doubly happy I have an ear.

maybe the debate is how much time to devote to each and not an either or debate

[T-Block]

Well, all I know is theory took me to a place in music that all my ear training in the world couldn't do.  That's why I choose to emphasize the theory of music over just having a good ear.

[T-Block]

This is the MAIN REASON for so many chord request.Let the debate begin.

That ain't the main reason.  It's a common reason, but not the main one.  Do you actually think people just woke up playing chords well?  No, it took years and years and years of serious practice.  That's what's missing from this whole generation (myself included), taking time to really learn.  We all want things right now and that's what I feel is the main reason for all the chord requests. 

Be honest, how many of us is willing to wait a few years before tackling all these hard songs?  or spend a few years trying to learn one song?  These may be extremes, but sometimes it takes a loooonnnngggg time for some to get where they want to be.

[sjonathan02]

It seems to me that this discussion could end with a simple, 'learn to do both' comment and we can move on. 

[diverse379]

It seems to me that this discussion could end with a simple, 'learn to do both' comment and we can move on. 

It does seem that way but it is so much more complicated then that.

this is one of those things that when you scratch the surface there is so much more then meets the eye.


for example T-Blocks comment
that theory helped him more then ear training did

and I respect T-Blocks comment a lot because I IKnow he went to school.

but then there was something else tied up in his reply

such as his comment that many peopld are not willing to work hard

that is classic
because those people who do play by ear
experiment and experiment and play and play
and work and work

so when we say ear iti s a minomer
because it starts with the ear but it ends with the work put in

I myself learned theory because my ear wasnt good enough to hear the crazy complex chords
but in retro spect i wonder if it wasnt just me not trusting the process. 


Also I really dont want to call this a debate
but an unravelling discussion that will
reveal our hidden fears and insecurities with both areas.

there are some like me who had a big analytical brain and felt comfortable with the theory
but wasnt so naturally gifted with an ear and groove and so i drifted over into the world of the theory and left the ear pretty much alone

why learn a record by ear when i can find a teacher to show me
or a book to learn it

or even a chorded chart on LGM


I even know a dude who is nasty
but i found out that most of his songs he learned from either chorded songs or midis
but he cant really put together songs on his own

he has a terrible time puting together a song from a record
without the help of a midi or chorded chart he is almost lost
and he has been playing for a while and if you heard him play you would think he is a beast

but he doesent have either the ear or the theory
just the patience to learn from midis.


when I say ear I really mean not so much the ear training that T-Block or I do in school

but I mean doing what the old jaxzz and blues musicians did

taking record and copying what you hear

I realy think we should put just as much time doing this as we would learning theory

I really emphasize learning from as many records as you can


try this

if you have two songs to learn make one song be one that you just like dont worry if you cant find the chords for it
or if no one knows how to play it so that they can teach it to you


bite the bullet and learn the song the best you can
learn those choir parts
learn the piano parts the horn parts
take the song apart

you might have to do something else to fill in what you cant copy
and it might just be something really hot and unique

so yes Sjon we could
say lets do both and move on
but if we did that

then people would miss what is really hindering them

because theory people would still do the theory and avoid the ear

and ear people would still rely on their ear and avoid the theory

My desire is that people embrace  both whole heartedly

[sjonathan02]

It does seem that way but it is so much more complicated then that.

this is one of those things that when you scratch the surface there is so much more then meets the eye.


for example T-Blocks comment
that theory helped him more then ear training did

and I respect T-Blocks comment a lot because I IKnow he went to school.

but then there was something else tied up in his reply

such as his comment that many peopld are not willing to work hard

that is classic
because those people who do play by ear
experiment and experiment and play and play
and work and work

so when we say ear iti s a minomer
because it starts with the ear but it ends with the work put in

I myself learned theory because my ear wasnt good enough to hear the crazy complex chords
but in retro spect i wonder if it wasnt just me not trusting the process. 


Also I really dont want to call this a debate
but an unravelling discussion that will
reveal our hidden fears and insecurities with both areas.

there are some like me who had a big analytical brain and felt comfortable with the theory
but wasnt so naturally gifted with an ear and groove and so i drifted over into the world of the theory and left the ear pretty much alone

why learn a record by ear when i can find a teacher to show me
or a book to learn it

or even a chorded chart on LGM


I even know a dude who is nasty
but i found out that most of his songs he learned from either chorded songs or midis
but he cant really put together songs on his own

he has a terrible time puting together a song from a record
without the help of a midi or chorded chart he is almost lost
and he has been playing for a while and if you heard him play you would think he is a beast

but he doesent have either the ear or the theory
just the patience to learn from midis.


when I say ear I really mean not so much the ear training that T-Block or I do in school

but I mean doing what the old jaxzz and blues musicians did

taking record and copying what you hear

I realy think we should put just as much time doing this as we would learning theory

I really emphasize learning from as many records as you can


try this

if you have two songs to learn make one song be one that you just like dont worry if you cant find the chords for it
or if no one knows how to play it so that they can teach it to you


bite the bullet and learn the song the best you can
learn those choir parts
learn the piano parts the horn parts
take the song apart

you might have to do something else to fill in what you cant copy
and it might just be something really hot and unique

so yes Sjon we could
say lets do both and move on
but if we did that

then people would miss what is really hindering them

because theory people would still do the theory and avoid the ear

and ear people would still rely on their ear and avoid the theory

My desire is that people embrace  both whole heartedly

Ok, I'm a bottom line kind of a guy. So, your desire and my statement are one in the same. The whole idea in learning is that there is practice involved...and LOTS of it.

No matter if you play by ear and are trying to learn theory or vice versa, if you don't practice you'll only get but so far.

As I'm growing in this, I'm embracing both. I want to be able to hear the complex chords, but also understand why one would use such a chord.

It's a balance. Hmmm...there's that word again.

[diverse379]

lol

It's a balance. Hmmm...there's that word again. 

cool bro i hear you loud and clear


what are you doing home any way school isnt out yet.

[sjonathan02]

lol

It's a balance. Hmmm...there's that word again. 

cool bro i hear you loud and clear


what are you doing home any way school isnt out yet.

Actually, I'm at school now. My students are working diligently on their various instruments.

[morrism357]

i'll tell you something guys and gals.

I struggled for years to play simple melodies and to find the pitch of a vocal melody. I had a piano teacher and 2 voice coaches stomped. Come to find out it was how I perceived sound. Something little as the timbre of the voice or instrument would really confuse my ear. There are many people who may not be tone deaf but have serious difficulty at matching pitch or singing in tune. Old jazz saying if you can sing it you can play it. And yes I practiced on my ear for years.

Yes I do believe theory, but without a basic ear its going to be almost useless to play by ear. These things i know from experience. Till I found the problem with my ear or aural preception I couldn't play one song. Despite being well trained by one of the best jaZz my piano teacher in Delaware in theory. It comes down to more than just practice. Like anything else practicing right or practicing wrong is the difference between success and failure.

And if you don't know what you should be hearing then your practicing wrong. I beleive there should be much more ear training talk between teachers and students. Music is an aural art first.

[diverse379]

i'll tell you something guys and gals.

I struggled for years to play simple melodies and to find the pitch of a vocal melody. I had a piano teacher and 2 voice coaches stomped. Come to find out it was how I perceived sound. Something little as the timbre of the voice or instrument would really confuse my ear. There are many people who may not be tone deaf but have serious difficulty at matching pitch or singing in tune. Old jazz saying if you can sing it you can play it. And yes I practiced on my ear for years.

Yes I do believe theory, but without a basic ear its going to be almost useless to play by ear. These things i know from experience. Till I found the problem with my ear or aural preception I couldn't play one song. Despite being well trained by one of the best jaZz my piano teacher in Delaware in theory. It comes down to more than just practice. Like anything else practicing right or practicing wrong is the difference between success and failure.

And if you don't know what you should be hearing then your practicing wrong. I beleive there should be much more ear training talk between teachers and students. Music is an aural art first.

thank you brother
it took a year but finally I got somebody who understands my point

music is aural first

it has to sound good before anybody is going to analyze it.

[Spiritfingaz]

...Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this post. Like what was said, practice and diligence are key. I also agree that ear and theory go hand in hand, I knew tons of theoretical principles before I could play by ear, my ear didn't develop until I was placed in church situations where if you didn't play everyone looked at you like you didn't deserve to be on the organ or piano, so I had no choice but to step up my ear.
It didn't happen over night, but eventually as I began to play behind people by ear I realized all the musical principles I had learned through theory lessons and the fundamentals of music and then I could hear what needed to happen next in a song because of my ear telling me what theoretically fits.
I also had a need to know why things fit, like someone else said, why place a chromatic tri-tone substitution somewhere, like Kevin Bond, Asaph Ward, Cedric Thompson, and everybody else always does, instead of just playing the normal chord...my teacher was the same way. He taught me to stop trying to figure out why musically and understand where they're doing it musically because there is always a method to the madness and then apply it the same way and expand upon it with your own substitutions whether they are based on 5ths or 3rds....I hope this is making since.
I guess essentially, you need both and I just feel that if musicians stay dedicated to the craft of learning by ear, they will naturally have some kind of breaking point if they have theory background and all of the sudden everything will make some sort of sense.
Also...I think a lot of people don't realize that you somewhat can't force yourself to have a better ear, you have to let it happen naturally, whatever that means lol. But really if you try to hard to hear sometimes, you will never be able to pick things up because for the most part especially as a beginner the ear must be relaxed to hear.
Anyhow...just my thoughts....

[rickster2]

I agree with the playing by ear because i've learned to play what sounds good as well as what was right at the same time. I've also heard some people play completly by theory and after they were copmpared to me I was said to sound the best. Now I know who's better it's the theory but in most aspects playing by ear can carry you as far as theory so I stick with theory.

[T-Block]

it has to sound good before anybody is going to analyze it.

Not necessarily, you can still analyze something that sounds bad.  What u do is use your theory to figure out why it sounds bad, and possibly how to make it sound better.

[diverse379]

Not necessarily, you can still analyze something that sounds bad.  What u do is use your theory to figure out why it sounds bad, and possibly how to make it sound better.

what i meant was before womeone is going to analyze it and write it in a book as a device or technique it has to sound good

allt he devices we learn from the jazz and classical books were things that people discovered and just played

again my main point is for the theory people to put just as much time on their ear training and development.

[chevonee]

Now its time for CHEVONNE to put her two cents in LOL....I believe that both are important. But just as Diverse said, it could take years to get theory down....especially if you are a church musician NOW.  I depend on my ear to help me play right now, but on the side I am now learning theory because getting to the next level means that you are going to have to know what you are doing. Around this small town, most musicians are content to just transpose and get a few dollars thrown at them.  I desire to have more than just a few pats on the back, I want MORE....In order to do that, you must step out of your comfort zone. Hearing is great but understanding is what separates the MEN FROM THE BOYZ!!!