I'm not getting this

[bossman]

To the Professor T-Block
I am not understanding something.  I had the privilidge of watching a very awesome COGIC player come by my church.  HIS SOUND WAS FULL HE WAS VERY AUTHORITATIVE ON THE ORGAN AND TOOK CONTROL OF THE SERVICE.  At times he was not playing COGIC but he was still able to keep up and carry the service.  Much better than  I can because I am not very fluent in my playing.  But afterwards he was showing me some things and I noticed that he was playing distorted chords.  I don't know but in the scale of Ab F# is not in there.  But it seems that he was playing that F# chord in his right hand and Ab in his left.  Before I was taking lessons and the teacher was showing me this.  It opened up my smoothness and fluidity in playing by leeps and bounds but I could get nothing that I could base this method on.  Can you give me some help in this area and if anybody can offer help please post.  Be gentle people I am very green in this area so help me.  Thanks in advance my brothers and sisters.

[sjonathan02]

First, there's enharmonics which are notes that sound the same but are spelled differently. So, that F# you keep referring to is also called Gb (if you're still confused, it's the first black key in the group of three black keys just look at a keyboard  )

So, in actuality, the organ player was playing a chord within the Ab scale based off of the dominant 7th of the scale.


Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab are notes in the Ab major scale.

In order to get a dominant 7th, you must flatten the 7th note in the scale (in this case the 'G'); then you can build a triad (or more) off of that note.

It's all based on your understanding of scale degrees.


I hope that helps (and T-Block, I hope I explained that correctly  )

[T-Block]

Wow, good (and correct) explanation sjon.  I couldn't have said better myself.  Looks like my work here is done, LOL.

Hey bossman, there is your answer.  If you still having trouble understanding, come back and I'll see if I can try to come up with another explanation, if that's even possible cuz this one is th bomb.

[michaeln]

First, there's enharmonics which are notes that sound the same but are spelled differently. So, that F# you keep referring to is also called Gb (if you're still confused, it's the first black key in the group of three black keys just look at a keyboard  )

So, in actuality, the organ player was playing a chord within the Ab scale based off of the dominant 7th of the scale.


Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab are notes in the Ab major scale.

In order to get a dominant 7th, you must flatten the 7th note in the scale (in this case the 'G'); then you can build a triad (or more) off of that note.

It's all based on your understanding of scale degrees.


I hope that helps (and T-Block, I hope I explained that correctly  )

I believe this is what I'm looking for SJ.  I have tried to understand the chording that I've seen posted here and what I've seen the keyboard player do at our church.  For example these chords:

algieres posted this somewhere 
" like i said, you can do either a major minor walking progression, or a minor diminished walking progression..
ex;
KEYBOARD VOICING
LH/RH
KEY - C

I USE A MAJOR_MINOR_DIMINISHED_MINOR FOR MY 3 TO 6 A 4 CHORD APPROACH!

ED/AbBE__F#E/AC#E__AbD/FAbBF__AE/GACE

THEN THERE IS A MINOR DIMINISHED APPROACH!

EGB/EGBD__F#AC/EF#CF__GBD/EGBD__ACE/F#ACEb"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may sound/look like jibberish (turn off spell check SJ) but I get excited when that ligth comes on and I think I've made it over that hump.  What is the theory behind creating chord voicing and leading from "A"  chord to the "NEXT" chord?

[sjonathan02]

I believe this is what I'm looking for SJ.  I have tried to understand the chording that I've seen posted here and what I've seen the keyboard player do at our church.  For example these chords:

algieres posted this somewhere 
" like i said, you can do either a major minor walking progression, or a minor diminished walking progression..
ex;
KEYBOARD VOICING
LH/RH
KEY - C

I USE A MAJOR_MINOR_DIMINISHED_MINOR FOR MY 3 TO 6 A 4 CHORD APPROACH!

ED/AbBE__F#E/AC#E__AbD/FAbBF__AE/GACE

THEN THERE IS A MINOR DIMINISHED APPROACH!

EGB/EGBD__F#AC/EF#CF__GBD/EGBD__ACE/F#ACEb"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may sound/look like jibberish (turn off spell check SJ) but I get excited when that ligth comes on and I think I've made it over that hump.  What is the theory behind creating chord voicing and leading from "A"  chord to the "NEXT" chord?

If I'm understanding your question, and mind you, I'm by no means a keyboard guru like an Algieres of a T-Block, you want to know what gets you to the next chord, right? There are different ways to do it.

a. simply go there. Ex: In C

LH/RH

C / C E G
F / C F A

In this example, we went from the 1 chord to the 4 chord.

b. use a 2-5-1 Ex: In C

LH/RH

C / C E G

2-5-1 in the key of F. Why? Because F is where we want to go

G / Bb D G
C / C E G

F / A C F (this is the 1 to complete the 2-5-1 )

Those are two ways to go from one chord to another chord. There are others, but I'm at work and it's hard for me to discuss the other ways at this time.

If someone would like to check what I gave and continue this discussion, please feel free. I am of the opinion that THIS is what we really need a thread to really break down the mystery of this stuff.

Be Blessed.

[T-Block]

Well, in my opinion it all starts with the bass.  First, construct a bass line that you want.  After that, put some chords with those bass notes.  Once you got all your bass notes and chords together, then the voicings is up to you.  I try to use voicings where I don't move my hands much.  I'll use the 1-4-5 progression as an example in C.

1.  Write down your bass notes

C
F
G


2.  Put chords with them

C / C major
F / F major
G / G major


3.  Write the notes out for the chords

C / C-E-G
F / F-A-C
G / G-B-D


4.  Play with different voicings until u get the sound you're looking for

C / C-E-G
F / C-F-A
G / B-D-G

C / G-C-E
F / C-A
G / D-B

C / E-G-C
F / F-A-C
G / D-B-D

C-G / G-E
F-C / A-F
G-D / B-G

The possibilities are endless.  As long as you have all the necessary notes for a chord, you can voice it any way that you want to.

Does this clear some things up for you?

[michaeln]

YES! & no .

Yes, because that's also something I've been slow to learn.  I think I (and many others) make this harder than it actually is.  How do is break down my/and also posted chords to understand what they are and not just connect the letters as a puppet.  Don't get me wrong I know that all the posters put a lot of work and effort into posting chorded songs, but I want to get to the point where I know what I'm looking at.  I want to see a chord and like T-BLOCK and others have said "I hear the music and know that is this BASS NOTE with this chord" hopefully I didn't miss quote you Mr. T-BLOCK.  I want to see a Emin9 in any inversion and know that this is what it is. I know that the hearing and know may take longer but the reading is right there in black and white.  How do I get it from the paper to my brain and process it until its second nature.  I will also respond later about the answers you did post and thanks for making it plain.  God bless and and keep on teaching SJ & T-block........

I will also take a second look at T-block chord practice maybe the answer is in there.....

[michaeln]

http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,15720.0.html

This may be part of the answer.  I've see here that T-block uses 7th chords and a bass note, but what throws me in other post is ALL the extra notes.  And maybe it familiar to me because I'm use to the key of 'C' and once I'm out of that I'm lost.

[T-Block]

I want to see a Emin9 in any inversion and know that this is what it is. I know that the hearing and know may take longer but the reading is right there in black and white.  How do I get it from the paper to my brain and process it until its second nature. 

Well, thre are 2 ways to do this.  The first way is you must learn the formulas for how to form these different chords.  Once you got the formulas down, then you got to go through each key and replace the formula with notes of that key.  So, let's take your Emin9 chord for example:

Minor 9th chord forumla:  1-b3-5-b7-9

Emin9 =  E-G-B-D-F#

E / G-B-D-F#


The second way is a backwards version of this.  What you gonna do is take a particular chord, stack the notes up in thirds, then turn the notes into numbers and see what formula you have:

E / G-B-D-F#

E-G-B-D-F#

1-b3-5-b7-9

Minor 9th chord


You see how I did that?  The only way to recognize it is to practice it until it becomes like you said second nature.  There's no shortcut for this, it takes time and lots of it.  You know, you have inspired me to do a post on all chord formulas.  Look out for it!!!

[sjonathan02]

Ok, let’s take just one chord:

In C:

G-D / G-B-D      a simple ‘G’ major chord in its root position, right? Right. First, you HAVE to learn how to recognize this chord in its various inversions

(we’ll stick with the RH for now to illustrate the inversions just remember that what ever you can do in the right hand you can do in the left):

G-D / B-D-G      now, the chord is in 1st inversion
G-D / D-G-B      now, the chord is in 2nd inversion

How do you know what inversion to use? It depends on your melody or what YOU want for the melody.

BUT, what if we just play with and add some notes to this simple chord?

Let’s lower the third:

G / G-Bb-D    now, we have a simple ‘G’ minor chord in its root position. I’ll trust that you’ll copy this and go through the inversions yourself so that I can simplify this post.

Let’s add the 7th:

G-D / G-B-D-F#  we have a major 7th chord (You have to know your scales in order to understand this concept)

Let’s lower the 7th:

G / G-B-D-F   now, we have a dominant 7th chord (or, it’s just called a 7th chord)

Let’s lower the third again:

G / G-Bb-D-F now, we have a ‘G’ minor 7

Let’s lower the third and the fifth:

G / G-Bb-Db-F now, we have a ‘G’ half-diminished 7th

When you alter or add note in a chord, you change the color (or sound) of it. Depending on what you want, you can come up with very interesting chords.

I’ll leave you with that, for now. Questions?

And, of course, if I'm missing something in this explanation, knowing that there's more, obviously, please assist, folks.

Again, I think THIS is the kind of stuff that folks have really been seeking when stuck.

[michaeln]

Thanks T-block I'll be waiting for that new formula sheet you spoke of.   SJ that's right on the money I thought I was rambling but I guess you understood my request.  I can see and understand the right hand as you posted, but "SOMEBODY" said that you should look at the chord LH/RH as one combined chord is that true or is the method you showed preferred.  If I understand what I read (and did print and will go through when I get to my keyboard) you look at the hand separate and the inversion are done only in the right hand (OR THAT COULD BE BECAUSE YOU WHERE ONLY EXPLAINING THE RH).

G-D / B-D-G      now, the chord is in 1st inversion
because to look at this as one complete chord would be saying that I'm playing in 2 octaves(octave above and below middle C just for my mental placement) G TO G while playing  the D below the highest G and the B just below that D all in the RH.  While in the left I'd play the D above middle C and the G below that D. So what a just be concerned that I'm playing a Gmaj chord 1st inversion over G & D in the left hand or is there a chord name for this, because have 5 notes it would be some kind of 9th chord right/wrong......

KEEP ON TEACHING ME GUYS. THANKS

[sjonathan02]

Thanks T-block I'll be waiting for that new formula sheet you spoke of.   SJ that's right on the money I thought I was rambling but I guess you understood my request.  I can see and understand the right hand as you posted, but "SOMEBODY" said that you should look at the chord LH/RH as one combined chord is that true or is the method you showed preferred.  If I understand what I read (and did print and will go through when I get to my keyboard) you look at the hand separate and the inversion are done only in the right hand (OR THAT COULD BE BECAUSE YOU WHERE ONLY EXPLAINING THE RH).

G-D / B-D-G      now, the chord is in 1st inversion
because to look at this as one complete chord would be saying that I'm playing in 2 octaves(octave above and below middle C just for my mental placement) G TO G while playing  the D below the highest G and the B just below that D all in the RH.  While in the left I'd play the D above middle C and the G below that D. So what a just be concerned that I'm playing a Gmaj chord 1st inversion over G & D in the left hand or is there a chord name for this, because have 5 notes it would be some kind of 9th chord right/wrong......

KEEP ON TEACHING ME GUYS. THANKS

Ok, to be sure that you understood what I was trying to address, I ONLY used the inversions in the RH. To be completely honest, the person who told you that info about it being one chord was correct!

Now, that you have an understanding, we can go a bit further. First, let me say this, more than likely when you play a chord, you'll be playing a note in both hands, ok? With that said:


G-D / G-B-D Root position
B / G-B-D 1st Inversion     Why? Because the third of the chord (the 'B') is in the LH
D / G-B-D 2nd Inversion     Why? Because the fifth of the chord (the 'D') is in the LH

Now, don't let this throw you, but you can rearrange the notes in the right hand to ANYTHING you'd like, as T-block stated:

THE BASS NOTE DETERMINES YOUR CHORD 99.9% OF THE TIME!!!!! The other .1% are SLASH CHORDS. Don't worry about those for now.

There IS another type of inversion. It's the 3rd inversion and is used with dominant 7th chords. Can you do it with Maj 7th chords? I'll defer to T-Block or someone else who'd like to answer (I think the anwer is no, but I'm NO expert; I'm just tryin' to pass along what it is that I DO understand )

F / G-B-D (or some other note arrangement)

Now, with this additional info, play with the chords types that I posted (that you printed out). Use the various inversions. Let us know how it turns out.

Then, we can try to go on.

[T-Block]

There is some good teaching going on in this thread.  Let me say one thing about inversions, sjon said this already, this is just a different way of looking at it:

When you look at a chord like this, G-B-D, it's obvious you can tell it's in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  Well, that works for chords like this as well:

G / G-B-D

Now, as far as the RH goes, it's in root position.  When you look at both hands together, it's also in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  What about these chords:

G / B-D-G
G / D-G-B

I'll bet you guessed 1st inversion and 2nd inversion right?  Well, if you're talking about the RH, then you're correct.  But, when you look at both hands together, both of those chords are in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  You could play any notes that you want.  But, if G is the root and it is on the bottom, then it's in root position.

This is a theory concept stemming from what we call the figured bass, which is probably way too advanced for some of yall beginners, so I will stop right there.

There IS another type of inversion. It's the 3rd inversion and is used with dominant 7th chords. Can you do it with Maj 7th chords? I'll defer to T-Block or someone else who'd like to answer (I think the anwer is no, but I'm NO expert; I'm just tryin' to pass along what it is that I DO understand )

The 3rd inversion is used for any chord with 4 (different) notes in it.  So, yes sjon the Major 7th chord qualifies:

C-E-G-B = root position
E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
G-B-C-E = 2nd inversion
B-C-E-G = 3rd inversion

For chords with 5 (different) notes in it, there is the 4th inversion.  Example using the CM7 add9 chord:

C-D-E-G-B = root position 
D-E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
E-G-B-C-D = 2nd inversion
G-B-C-D-E = 3rd inversion
B-C-D-E-G = 4th inversion

[sjonathan02]

There is some good teaching going on in this thread.  Let me say one thing about inversions, sjon said this already, this is just a different way of looking at it:

When you look at a chord like this, G-B-D, it's obvious you can tell it's in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  Well, that works for chords like this as well:

G / G-B-D

Now, as far as the RH goes, it's in root position.  When you look at both hands together, it's also in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  What about these chords:

G / B-D-G
G / D-G-B

I'll bet you guessed 1st inversion and 2nd inversion right?  Well, if you're talking about the RH, then you're correct.  But, when you look at both hands together, both of those chords are in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  You could play any notes that you want.  But, if G is the root and it is on the bottom, then it's in root position.

This is a theory concept stemming from what we call the figured bass, which is probably way too advanced for some of yall beginners, so I will stop right there.

The 3rd inversion is used for any chord with 4 (different) notes in it.  So, yes sjon the Major 7th chord qualifies:

C-E-G-B = root position
E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
G-B-C-E = 2nd inversion
B-C-E-G = 3rd inversion

For chords with 5 (different) notes in it, there is the 4th inversion.  Example using the CM7 add9 chord:

C-D-E-G-B = root position 
D-E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
E-G-B-C-D = 2nd inversion
G-B-C-D-E = 3rd inversion
B-C-D-E-G = 4th inversion

Man, you're right, T-block. I forgot the rule, however many notes you have in a chord ishow many inversions you have.

[michaeln]

There is some good teaching going on in this thread.  Let me say one thing about inversions, sjon said this already, this is just a different way of looking at it:

When you look at a chord like this, G-B-D, it's obvious you can tell it's in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  Well, that works for chords like this as well:

G / G-B-D

Now, as far as the RH goes, it's in root position.  When you look at both hands together, it's also in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  What about these chords:

G / B-D-G
G / D-G-B

I'll bet you guessed 1st inversion and 2nd inversion right?  Well, if you're talking about the RH, then you're correct.  But, when you look at both hands together, both of those chords are in root position.  Why?  Because the root is on the bottom.  You could play any notes that you want.  But, if G is the root and it is on the bottom, then it's in root position.

This is a theory concept stemming from what we call the figured bass, which is probably way too advanced for some of yall beginners, so I will stop right there.

The 3rd inversion is used for any chord with 4 (different) notes in it.  So, yes sjon the Major 7th chord qualifies:

C-E-G-B = root position
E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
G-B-C-E = 2nd inversion
B-C-E-G = 3rd inversion

For chords with 5 (different) notes in it, there is the 4th inversion.  Example using the CM7 add9 chord:

C-D-E-G-B = root position 
D-E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
E-G-B-C-D = 2nd inversion
G-B-C-D-E = 3rd inversion
B-C-D-E-G = 4th inversion

So as SJ stated this is whats needed because by talking to you two I've begun to understand something that has boggled my mind for sometime.  But let me make sure that I understand.

If i want to play a CM7 I could play it like this:

C/CEGF -ROOT ((RH))
C/EFGC-1ST (RH)
C/GCEF-2ND (RH)
C/FGCE-3RD (RH)



F/CEG-(LH 3RD)
C/EFG-(LH ROOT)
E/FGC-(LH 1ST)
G/CEF-(LH 2ND)
C/CEG-(LH ROOT)

But what theory does the RH follow when I'm using the bass note(s) as both hands together.  Because it sometimes (mostly all the time) throws me when I see identicals NOTES played in each hand.  I then assume (never assume) that the RH is played an octave higher.

[michaeln]

I know I'm getting ahead of myself (maybe I should just slow down), but I'm hungry to learn while I can smell the CHEFS cooking.  This is what I want to be able to see and instantly know.  See a chord spelled out like this or even "Emin9 add 6" and know what NOTES creates it.

 Re: 1-7-3-6-2-5 Progression Game
« Reply #9 on: Today at 07:36:54 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. C-G / D-G-B

7. B-F#/D-F#-A

3. E-D/A-D-G-B

6. A-E-G / C-Eb-G

2. D / F-A-C-E

5. G-D-F / G#-B-E


1. C-*G-C / E-G-B-D  *G is optional

7. B/ Eb-G-A-D

3. E/E-Ab-C-D

6. A-E / D-G-B
 
 
 

[T-Block]

If i want to play a CM7 I could play it like this:

C/CEGF -ROOT ((RH))
C/EFGC-1ST (RH)
C/GCEF-2ND (RH)
C/FGCE-3RD (RH)

No, a CM7 chord has the following scale degrees:  1-3-5-7

So, in C, your chord is:  C-E-G-B

RH only

C-E-G-B = root
E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
G-B-C-E = 2nd inversion
B-C-E-G = 3rd inversion


LH and RH as a whole

C / C-E-G-B = root
E / C-E-G-B = 1st inversion
G / C-E-G-B = 2nd inversion
B / C-E-G-B = 3rd inversion

But what theory does the RH follow when I'm using the bass note(s) as both hands together.  Because it sometimes (mostly all the time) throws me when I see identicals NOTES played in each hand.  I then assume (never assume) that the RH is played an octave higher.

Whenever the bass is involved, it always dominates the chord.  So, what you have to do is first stack the notes up in 3rds to see what quality chord you have (major, minor, dom. 7th, etc.).  Once you got that, then you name the chord according to what's on the bottom.  Example:

Bb / G-C-E

C-E-G-Bb = C7

Bb / G-C-E = C7/Bb, which is the C7 chord in 3rd inversion

Does that help?

[B3Wannabe]

I wouldn't call "Bb / G-C-E" a C7 chord, unless the Bb was directly below the C, if it was lower than that, the Bb, like you said, would dominate and you'd end up with more of a Bb 6/9 (Bb-G-C-F) type sound, but since there is no F or D, instead of the E it wouldn't be called a "6/9" just "C/Bb" (which is what I think you meant to type).

[michaeln]

No, a CM7 chord has the following scale degrees:  1-3-5-7

So, in C, your chord is:  C-E-G-B

RH only

C-E-G-B = root
E-G-B-C = 1st inversion
G-B-C-E = 2nd inversion
B-C-E-G = 3rd inversion


LH and RH as a whole

C / C-E-G-B = root
E / C-E-G-B = 1st inversion
G / C-E-G-B = 2nd inversion
B / C-E-G-B = 3rd inversion

Whenever the bass is involved, it always dominates the chord.  So, what you have to do is first stack the notes up in 3rds to see what quality chord you have (major, minor, dom. 7th, etc.).  Once you got that, then you name the chord according to what's on the bottom.  Example:

Bb / G-C-E

C-E-G-Bb = C7

Bb / G-C-E = C7/Bb, which is the C7 chord in 3rd inversion

Does that help?

Sorry I got excited and stopped paying attention to what I was doing.  Back on track now......

[michaeln]

Bb / G-C-E = C7/Bb, which is the C7 chord in 3rd inversion

Not sure what you mean here.  Are you saying that a C7 chord over Bb, but if that's what you're saying how can it be a C7 because you need all 4 notes that make it?