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Offline diverse379

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ear vs theory
« on: October 18, 2006, 02:51:50 PM »
we have had threads like this before but something happened to me yesterday
i am in college now for music theory and the professor had to excuse me from classes because my knowledge surpasses the level of the class so he works with me privately and the first thing he discovered is that i dont listen to enough music
music is about hearing and listening very deeply (singing the bass and all the voices of the singers as well as the voices in the chords) is a level of hearing i have never even thought about.

Theory is cool and i will never bash it because it has gotten me where I am today but in order to go further i need to Use my ear to open up more

I would imagine that some ear players could get to the point where maybe having some theory will help them reach higher points of musicianship

He recommended that we begin wih kim burrell and Twinkie clark.

interesting two choices the real funny thing is that he wrote one of the songs on the live in charlotte albulm

so I trust his judgement.  I ask all you of you musicians out there never forsake either learn your theory but dont become dependent on it.  it is only a tool to help you process what your ear hears

is one better than the other i cannot say.

but I will say anyone who slights one for the other is making a decision which will hamper their improvement.

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline 4hisglory

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2006, 07:20:49 PM »
If you want to "play by ear" you have to use your ear.  Sounds like a simple concept buuuuuutttt alot of people don't get it.

If you can just sit down and play whatever is in your head, or what you hear, music theory is probably a waiste of time (unless you want to be a pro).  But if you are struggling to play, theory is the way to go.  Because once you really get to playing, you don't even think about all the theory, you just do it.
:)

Offline diverse379

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2006, 08:08:00 AM »
good point

I agree with you that theory is a tool best used by those of us who do not have magic ears.

I myself did not have the ears necessary to hear all that i needed

theory helped me to create and play beautiful music. 

I see people who have such ears and there is an excellence in their playing as if they new all the theory in the world. the theory was contained in their heart.  and was expressed through their fingers

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline rspindy

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 12:50:05 PM »
Even if you play by ear, the theory is important.

Consider this -- Music is a language.  It has a grammar and syntax, it has form and structure.  It also has dialects as well as some forms that are barely comprehensible to some (serial music, aleatoric music, etc.).  Just as the forms of expression in the spoken language have changed (compare Shakespeare to Charles Dickins to any present day writer), The forms of musical expression has evolved.  In the spoken language, the study is grammar.  In music, that study is called Theory.

It should also be understood that Theory is NOT a set of rules.  It is actually a study how certain types of music at certain times and places were created.  In actuallity, we should probably speak of Music Theories since different musics have different rules.  Indian Ragas are created differently than most western music.  And the Music of Bach is different from that of Mozart which is different from that of Beethoven, which is different from that of any of the Romantic composers and of course decidedly different from Stravinsky, Schoenberg, etc.

The Music Theory that we are most familiar with is that of what is sometimes referred to as the "Period of Common Practice"-- over 300 years from about the time of Bach to the dawn of the 20th century. It is a theory based on tonal music, the major/ minor system, functional harmony, a hierarchy of keys, equal temperment, etc.

But that music theory didn't just die in 1900 and much of it still lives on today.  But it has evolved into several different dialects (like American English evolved differently from British English and similar to the way Latin became Spanish and French and Italian, etc.)  Among those strains are contemporary pop, contemporary christian, jazz, gospel, rock and roll, and blues.  These evolved from the concept of tonality as expressed in the theories of the "Period of Common Practice" but expanded uipon them.  That trusty old II - V - I progression has its roots in the music of the Baroque  (IV - V - I was actually more common later in the Classic period.)  And that trusty old I - VI - II(or IV) - V - I progression can be seen in Pachlebel's Canon in D -- I - (V) - VI - (III) - IV - (I) - IV - V - I  (the chords in the parenthesis are interim chords -- you could actually play that bass with just the I - VI - IV - V - I progression.

If you want to learn and play or create your own classical style music, then an understanding of classical theory helps -- you can't use a bunch of extended chords (9, 11, 13) and have it resemble Mozart.  If you want to learn Rock and Roll then you can't use a lot of 7th chords -- it is very triadic.  If you want to understand the music of the Serial/ Stonalists, you have to delve into a completely different type of music theory.

That said, the theories of Music help a musician to understand a particular form, style, and or period of music.  Theory is as important to the musician -- whether or not one plays by ear or uses printed music -- as the understanding of grammar and syntax is to the Preacher.  Ear vs. Theory are not exclusive -- in fact it is rather like comparing apples to oranges.  Ear is a means of musical transmission (the other being printed music).  Theory is about the materials out of which that music is created.  Remember, all music is aural -- the printed page is not music, it is simply a means of transmitting music from one person to another.

May God bless y'all

HustleMan

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 03:39:23 PM »
Even if you play by ear, the theory is important.

Consider this -- Music is a language.  It has a grammar and syntax, it has form and structure.  It also has dialects as well as some forms that are barely comprehensible to some (serial music, aleatoric music, etc.).  Just as the forms of expression in the spoken language have changed (compare Shakespeare to Charles Dickins to any present day writer), The forms of musical expression has evolved.  In the spoken language, the study is grammar.  In music, that study is called Theory.

It should also be understood that Theory is NOT a set of rules.  It is actually a study how certain types of music at certain times and places were created.  In actuallity, we should probably speak of Music Theories since different musics have different rules.  Indian Ragas are created differently than most western music.  And the Music of Bach is different from that of Mozart which is different from that of Beethoven, which is different from that of any of the Romantic composers and of course decidedly different from Stravinsky, Schoenberg, etc.

The Music Theory that we are most familiar with is that of what is sometimes referred to as the "Period of Common Practice"-- over 300 years from about the time of Bach to the dawn of the 20th century. It is a theory based on tonal music, the major/ minor system, functional harmony, a hierarchy of keys, equal temperment, etc.

But that music theory didn't just die in 1900 and much of it still lives on today.  But it has evolved into several different dialects (like American English evolved differently from British English and similar to the way Latin became Spanish and French and Italian, etc.)  Among those strains are contemporary pop, contemporary christian, jazz, gospel, rock and roll, and blues.  These evolved from the concept of tonality as expressed in the theories of the "Period of Common Practice" but expanded uipon them.  That trusty old II - V - I progression has its roots in the music of the Baroque  (IV - V - I was actually more common later in the Classic period.)  And that trusty old I - VI - II(or IV) - V - I progression can be seen in Pachlebel's Canon in D -- I - (V) - VI - (III) - IV - (I) - IV - V - I  (the chords in the parenthesis are interim chords -- you could actually play that bass with just the I - VI - IV - V - I progression.

If you want to learn and play or create your own classical style music, then an understanding of classical theory helps -- you can't use a bunch of extended chords (9, 11, 13) and have it resemble Mozart.  If you want to learn Rock and Roll then you can't use a lot of 7th chords -- it is very triadic.  If you want to understand the music of the Serial/ Stonalists, you have to delve into a completely different type of music theory.

That said, the theories of Music help a musician to understand a particular form, style, and or period of music.  Theory is as important to the musician -- whether or not one plays by ear or uses printed music -- as the understanding of grammar and syntax is to the Preacher.  Ear vs. Theory are not exclusive -- in fact it is rather like comparing apples to oranges.  Ear is a means of musical transmission (the other being printed music).  Theory is about the materials out of which that music is created.  Remember, all music is aural -- the printed page is not music, it is simply a means of transmitting music from one person to another.

May God bless y'all

Outstanding Post.

Offline 4hisglory

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2006, 03:45:39 PM »
rspindy , you are a dangerous man. :D
:)

Offline diverse379

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2006, 05:29:45 PM »
That is a beautifully explained post.

But I want to hear from the people who can duplicate mozart or beetoven or bach from ear

they can hear that it is devoid of certain tonal structures and are able to capture it.

I have seen charles minor and Melvin play beautiful classical music and they do not know any theory at all but are able to duplicate almost exactly whatever they hear

melvin has perfect pitch but Charles does not yet charles can play whatever he hears because as he says it he is alert or he listens very deeply,.


I find it strange that whenever I explore this subject everyone who responds automatcally starts defendng theory like i am trying to advocate throwing it away.


Most people even those who play by ear respect theory so my aim is not to throw away theory

But for someone like me who knows a lot of theory I am trying to now discover the ear and how to listen deeper.

For crying out loud nobody is writing theory on donald lawrence or Thomas whitfield or james hall

so if you want to duplicate those individuals you have to use your ear

les face it Both ear and theory have their limitations

I am only trying to create a balance but if no one posts about the beauty of hearing and application then once again we will have a thread that is one sided.

Dont get me wrong once and for all


I love theory

But it is time for me to use my ear and I would love for someone to teach their beliefs about ear and hearing
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline axeman1

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2006, 01:41:31 AM »
That is a beautifully explained post.

But I want to hear from the people who can duplicate mozart or beetoven or bach from ear

they can hear that it is devoid of certain tonal structures and are able to capture it.

I have seen charles minor and Melvin play beautiful classical music and they do not know any theory at all but are able to duplicate almost exactly whatever they hear

melvin has perfect pitch but Charles does not yet charles can play whatever he hears because as he says it he is alert or he listens very deeply,.


I find it strange that whenever I explore this subject everyone who responds automatcally starts defendng theory like i am trying to advocate throwing it away.


Most people even those who play by ear respect theory so my aim is not to throw away theory

But for someone like me who knows a lot of theory I am trying to now discover the ear and how to listen deeper.

For crying out loud nobody is writing theory on donald lawrence or Thomas whitfield or james hall

so if you want to duplicate those individuals you have to use your ear

les face it Both ear and theory have their limitations

I am only trying to create a balance but if no one posts about the beauty of hearing and application then once again we will have a thread that is one sided.

Dont get me wrong once and for all


I love theory

But it is time for me to use my ear and I would love for someone to teach their beliefs about ear and hearing

I am going to be very transparent here.  I play guitar for my church EXCLUSIVELY by ear.  By saying exclusively, I mean just that.  Don't even attempt to give me the key or any note because it doesn't mean anything to me when I'm playing.  I suspect that I am not alone amongst other 'ear players' that don't have formal training in being very embarassed by this short coming.  However It was just a couple of years ago that I found that many theory trained musicians actually feel handicapped by the inability to play by ear.  A few ladies that play the piano and organ expressed that they were frustrated that the could not play by ear and also expressed that they were amazed at how I was able to do it.  I was totally shocked by this because I always felt that they looked down on me because of my lack of training. I am completely self taught so I learned a little and I mean -very-very- little theory many many years ago but as soon as I got to where I could create my own melodies and duplicate what I heard on the radio, that was it.  I deeply regret not getting proper training now though.

  Now having said that I will say that I have an exceptional ear.  I can hear a couple of bars of a song that I have never heard before and start playing the melody and then spontaneously start improvising chords and harmonies.  I do not have perfect pitch although some of the people that I have played with thought that I do. My 'technique' if you can call it that is that I pluck the b string with the pick while sliding my finger along the string until I hear a note fall in place somewhere in the key that the song being played is in, it doesn't really matter what the note is or where it falls because I can scale from any position.  Because I have been playing like this for so long I would be at a complete loss in trying to explain what or how I do it. 

It is impossible to explain to someone the hows or whys that your'e doing when you don' t even know yourself? :-[
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Offline flojo4jc

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2006, 09:16:01 AM »
diverse,

i find myself in your position as well.  i won't say that i know advanced theory, but i have had a lot of theory along the way.  as far as singing is concerned people have said that i have a good ear, but when it comes to the keyboard i think i'm handicapped in both regards.  i'm not (yet) at a point where my theory is enabling me to play exceptionally. i can pick up a song, but it takes me about half an hour or more depending on the difficulty of the song.  unfortunately i've resorted to a dependence on fakebooking. with fakebooking i can insert the theory i know and insert a little bit of what i hear, but at the same time i have a safety net when its just not coming to me...

anyway, my point is that i would really like to learn to "hear and listen deeply" as well, but a lot of people have said it can take a lifetime of learning if its not a natural gift (like that of axeman). i'll definitely be following this thread...
Psalm 27:4 One thing that I desire...

Offline 4hisglory

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2006, 09:49:01 AM »
anyway, my point is that i would really like to learn to "hear and listen deeply" as well, but a lot of people have said it can take a lifetime of learning if its not a natural gift (like that of axeman). i'll definitely be following this thread...

The way that you do this is just to get a CD, listen to it and try to play what you hear.  I am convinced that anyone can do it.  I will be the first to admit that my talent level is about a 2 on a scale to 1 to 10, :)  but if I sit down and listen to a song long enough, I can figure it out.  It just takes practice.  You have to work at it.
:)

Offline rspindy

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2006, 11:43:26 AM »
My intent was not to place theory over the ability to listen and hear the music and I am sorry if I left that impression.  My intent was first to show that theory and ear are not mutually exclusive, that in fact they are not necessarily two sides of the same coin.  I think that what is most unfortunate is that most theory has been taught as paper work with only abstract moments of actual sound involved.  Theory is more than just writing isolated notes on a staff or knowing "Every Good Boy Does Fine" or how to build a C7 b5 #9 or making a scale.

Theory involves Harmony - how chords are or have been put together and the various common patterns used.  It involves Melody - how notes are put into patterns to create motives and themes and phrases and periods and entire compositions.  Melody is about hearing a shape, hearing patterns that are repeated or varied by changing modes or repeated in sequence on different pitches.  Its about Counterpoint -- how different melodies are put together, not just in fugues but even simple counter melodies. Theory is about Form -- not just the study of Sonata Form or Fugue or Opera, but hearing the form and structure of any piece, whether traditional or newly created by the composer.  Theory is overall about sound, not written music, therefore even ear players can learn it without reference to the printed note.

And to be honest, I think that for over a century, music has been incorrectly taught -- particularly piano and organ.  I say this because the methods that most teachers have used have dealt with both reading and playing at the same time.  That is tantamount to expecting a baby who is just learning the language to only say the words that he/she can read.  I did say that the "printed page is not music".  Music only exists in sound.  Granted, that sound may be in your head as you look at a score, but it still is a form of sound.

Nor was my intent to denigrate those who have exceptional ears.  That is a blessing not to be taken lightly.  And I would add that those who do acquire their music by ear with great ease actually know a substantial amount of theory (though they do not realize it.)  They may not know all of the terminology, but they inately understand the of music.  They know the common patterns and vocabulary of various styles.  They know that there are forms and structures -- they may not know if it is a Sonata or a Toccata, but they do hear how the material is put together.

As I stated, Music is a language.  Just as an isolated letter of the alphabet (say "C" or "G")  has no meaning other than a representation of a particular sound(s), an isolated note (say "A") has no meaning other than to represent a frequencey of 440 hertz or one halves or doubles.  It only gains its meaning in relationship to the notes around it.  In language "C" only does anything when we put it with other letters.  Heck we don't even know for sure what it sounds like until it has other letters -- "Car" or "Receive" In music, the "A" has a different meaning in a motive like "C - A - F" (the old NBC theme) than in a pattern "G - A - B - C" where it is only passing a passing tone filling in the space between G and C.

Those who have more theory than ear practice and get your music mostly through the printed page, you can develop your ear and you can use your theory to help.  As it has been stated "listen and hear deeply"  Here are some ideas to try.  Pick a favorite piece of music -- something not too long at first (a symphony can be daunting).  First listen to the overall piece.  Listen for the parts that are similar and the parts that are different -- i.e. Listen for the overall form.  Create a map of it -- you can do the "A A B A C..." bit or name them as colors or animals (this song was Duck Duck Goose Duck Fox).  Store that pattern away in your mind or in a notebook.  (As you listen to more different pieces, you will find some patterns are repeated).

Now listen carefully to the melody of the first section.  What is its shape -- does it start high and descend, start low an ascend, does it go up and down, does it end higher than it started, lower than it started, between the high and low notes?   Does the melody have a lot of leaps or is it fairly smooth and stepwise?  Draw a map of the shape.  Are there repeated parts within or does it constantly change from beginning to end?  Now compare this map to the next part(s) that you determined was the same or similar.  Is the melody the exact same or does it vary?  Then do the same with the sections that are different.  How different?  Does it use some of the same patterns or is it completely different?

Next you can start picking out the melody at your instrument using your map as a guide.  If your map showed fairly flowing almost stepwise motion, you are not going to pick out huge leaps and vice versa.  If your map showed patterns that were repeated on the same pitch or different, once you have determined the first pattern, you only need to determine the starting pitch for the next ones -- you don't have to pick out individual notes.

You can then do similar ideas for the bass line, the harmonies, any counter melodies etc.  And this can be done without even using one bit of musical jargon.  Then try the same on another piece and not only relate the parts within the piece but determine if there are any similarities between Piece A and Piece B.  For the "theory trained" that rely on printed music, it is a good means to truly apply those isolated bits of "text book" stuff.  What we are doing is a kind of "reverse engineering" of what the composer has done.

Let me give y'all a quick example.  I'll use "Over the Rainbow"  The main melody has 23 notes.:

Listening for the overall form.  If you listen carefully, you will hear "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" Section and then repeated, then the "Someday I'll Wish" section followed by a "Somewhere" section and then ending with the "Someday" section (though the words change)  A A B A B.

The first melody -- "Somewhere Ov-" is a leap followed by a step down and then the Pattern "(Ov)-er the rainbow" which goes down (its a third) from "Ov-"then up fairly stepwise.  Next is "Way Up High" -- Leap then step down -- similar to "Somewhere Ov-".  Next "There's A Land" -- that leap then step (pattern 1 again) "(Land) that I heard of" (pattern two), "once in a lulla-" pattern 2,  "-by" the grand finale.

In listening, you may note that the after the initial leap, the melody descends basically in a scale.  Now, rather than having to pick out 23 notes, you only have to determine the size of the leaps (two sizes) and their starting pitches (just two different starting pitches) and add the appropriate pattern 2 after each one. 

I'm sorry if this post has been a bit lengthy.  It is sometimes difficult to get out certain ideas in a post without leaving things out (which I probably have anyway).  As before, I don't mean to indicate that there is a right way and a wrong way to learn and perform music.

Offline diverse379

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 07:55:48 AM »
cool rspindy
i was venting not so much at you but the prior posts i have seen on this common thread.

truly theory to me is not even about reading to me theory is about composition.

and I do it relatively well.  but the ear players the truly gifted ones are able to do things that i cnat uless I learn to hear more.

But this next thing I am going to say is interesting.  Your ability to hear is based on a certain amount of familiarity.  I doubt that if someone tood a great ear player and took a piano that was tuned in some weird way.  and then played in weird dissonant intervas os minor seconds and augmented fifths and sounded as unmusical as possible.  i wonder if even a charles minor or a melvin crispell or whatever other ear player you know will be able to play that,.

my point is that the patterns that ear players are playing are paterns tht they have worked at hearing


Charles minor told me yesterday that he studied thomas whitfield compositions for two years. 
by ear of course

he also told me how he practices remembering numbers everywhere he goes so he can remember what he hears and duplicate it

for example he brags how he can remember a 15 digit number that is called out to him this level of alertness can facilitate in duplicating a song that is heard.

i have seen him listen to a track regardless of the style and just play it almost exactly.

Yet i also notice he can play nearly any style of music but this comes from real intent study and practice from years of being exposed to great composers.

I am using Charles minor because he is a great writer and musician in the brooklyn area and He testifies that when he first started playing with Timothy wright he was lost but after really hanging around those guys he was able to get it.


he also explained that it was his job to learn how to play like Butch heyward for those times that butch was not their'

and he was able to do it.

he actually began to imagine himself as butch he tried to think like butch this may sound a little hokey but there is a book called unlimited power the black version 

and the author learned to play like BB king doing exactly the same thing

it is a technique called neuro linguistic programming/
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 08:57:58 AM »
diverse,

i find myself in your position as well.  i won't say that i know advanced theory, but i have had a lot of theory along the way.  as far as singing is concerned people have said that i have a good ear, but when it comes to the keyboard i think i'm handicapped in both regards.  i'm not (yet) at a point where my theory is enabling me to play exceptionally. i can pick up a song, but it takes me about half an hour or more depending on the difficulty of the song.  unfortunately i've resorted to a dependence on fakebooking. with fakebooking i can insert the theory i know and insert a little bit of what i hear, but at the same time i have a safety net when its just not coming to me...

anyway, my point is that i would really like to learn to "hear and listen deeply" as well, but a lot of people have said it can take a lifetime of learning if its not a natural gift (like that of axeman). i'll definitely be following this thread...


LET ME GRAB THE OTHER OAR, BECAUSE I'M IN THIS BOAT, RIGHT HERE!!!!!
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Offline 4hisglory

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Re: ear vs theory
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 07:54:45 PM »
I've really been thinking about this over the last two days and sometimes, I think we get into debates, when there shouldn't even be a debate.

Playing by ear isn't really "verse" theory, its something different altogether..  Yes, there is some over lap but the main pont is, Theory, is important, Playing by Ear is important, (and something not mentioned in this thread yet) and reading is important.  If you want to better yourself as a musician, all of these can help you.
:)
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