Classical Musician in need of help...

[milt48]

I am a music major who recently graduated from college and I have been playing piano for about 10 years.  I ahve been playing in church for about 5 years and I have been trained classically in piano.  I am an excellent piano player when it comes to Mozart and Chopin, that kind of stuff, but I really struggle with playing in church because I don't know how to play all of the chords and riffs, runs, etc, just the basic I IV V I progressions and add a couple of deceptive cadences in where i can fit them.  I feel bad sometimes because the other musician at my church is great at playing and can do all of those things and I cannot get him to teach me anything like that.  I really need help because I try to come up with new ways of playing things, but end up stopping because I get frustrated and can't make anything creative.  I am excellent in thoery and understand that, but when it comes to applying that to the music, I am not all there.  Please help out if you can.  I really want to advance my ministry through music because it's not about me...

[ELaurenV]

WOW.  You sound like me about 9 months ago.  I was a classically trained musician as well (I've played for about 9 years classically) and all of a sudden found myself playing for my church and have sturggled immensely through some of the very same things that you mentioned.  This is more about spiritual growth than anything else.  I have had to have the HUMILTIY to realize that basically I'm a musical baby for this kind of calling.  But God equips as he calls.  This is about you getting out of the way, foresaking fear and being an absolutely humble and usuable vessel...because THAT is the kind of musician that pulls down strongholds and breaks yokes with their playing.  You are FIRST AND FOREMOST a worship leader.  Worship at home on the piano...that's your closet time...and you'll find that you can't just play the same old hymns and songs, you are COMPELLED to play something more (a very similar feeling I had in my prayers right before God released me pray in a spiritual tounge) and it will be something birthed out of your worship of Him. 

As a clasically trained musicianI had to get broken from the pages the musical notes, the written score, because sometimes...most of the time, the church service won't just need those few pages, and the Spirit doesn't just follow the music you've got on your music stand.

Frankly some of the most annointed muscians I've met can't read a single note of music.  You know how they learn?  They've watched other people...observed...followed and FELT their way through to their style and the manifestation of their musical ability. 

There's something to this struggle.  It's both a struggle of spirit and ability.  The frustration you feel is energy you must pour into the discipline of your flesh and doing things the way you've always done them and learning to trust the leading of the Spirit.  FIRST when spiritually you've submitted to the calling (and YOU WILL BE ATTACKED EVERY STEP OF THIS WAY...we can talk about that later if you want) you will start playing stuff you never knew yourself capable of and THEN you will be such a blessing to others.  But KEEP GOING because this struggle is going to be a blessing to someone else someday. 

I know that I did not give you a lot of technique advice and theory, but this is what has happpend in my journey with God through music which I believe directly answers the frustration you are experiencing right now.  If you cannot tell I believe very personally about this matter and I hope you are comforted by the fact that you are not alone!

[diverse379]

I will try to help you if you check some of my posts I describe several concepts that would help a theory guru like yourself

but I will break down some things for you here


first of all if you know hte I IV V you really know all you need to know

lets start from there

first thing you will need to do is revisit how you see the diatonic scale

in classical
I =major7
ii= minor7
II = minor7
iv=major7
V=minor
VII=diminished

but gospel is a combination of two other genres
Jazz and Gospel

in Jazz the
1 is a major6/9
II=minor 9 or minor 11
III=minor9
Iv =Major9
V= dominant9 13 or b9 b13 or sharp 9 or sus 7
VI is either a minor 7 or a dominant 7
VII is either a diminished or a half diminished 7

and Blues

I=Dominant
II=Dominant
II= dominant
IV =dominant
V=dominant
VI=dominant
VII=the V chord with the VII in the Bass

nGospel now combines all the abvove concepts

I = major9 or major 6/9  or add9 (no 7) or Dominant  (major turns to dominant to set up the Iv chord or when you want to sound hog maws churccy you play the dominant 7

II = minor and sometimes Dominant

III = augmented 7 or alt chord #5 #9   
IV= major 9 or dominant  and even minor sometimes
V is sus chord or Minor 7 or any alteration
VI is dominant or minor 7 and often augmented 7 or an alt chord with the #5 and #9

Vii  is diminished or ViiOver V bass

now that you hve all of that and you listen to records you will hear when they are using what over what bass notes

and by the way gospel uses a lot of slash chords as well but that is later

lets look at that I IV V

the first thing we will do is rpalce the IV with the II so we will have
II V I as a cadence
use any combination of the above formulaes to build your II V I

before we get offf this Cadence lets add some fill chords do you know that you can approach any chord from a diminished below or a major7 above
or a dominant with a b5 or a #5 above or below

well you know now

so when you play the II V I play with approachich one two or all three chords with above and below chords

that was easy ok
try using tritone substitution

there is a parallell II V I located a tritone away this is key to understanding contemporary Gospe

in the key of C

the II V I is    D    G     C
tritone is       Ab   Db   Gb

each chord from each group can be substiturted for one antother

D can go to Db to C
D can go to Db to Gb
D can Go to Ab then To Db to Gb
Dto G to Gb

i hope you are seeing the idea here it gets crazy

now some chords voicings you may want to try is

to build your chords on the third or fifth degree of the root this will instantly give you nice sounding voicings that you can begin to explore Gospel with

The formulae is as follows

to make a major
Play a minor 7 chord on the third or a major 7 on the 5

so if you wanted a C maj chord you would play Eminor 7 over the C or Gmajor7 over the C or B minor7 over the C

for a minor chord you would play a Major7 on the b3 of the root or a minor 7 on the 5 or you can play the major7 on the seventh over the rooot and b3 in the left hand
for a Cminor chord you would play Eb major 7 or Gminor 7 or Bbmajor7 over a Cminor in the left hand

for a dominant chord you willl use the diminished voicings or half diminished located on the third

or you will use the major 7 built on the seventh

I am getting tired now

but one more thing you need the basic progressions

I IV V is the basici

but we can get there by other means

a lot of gospel is just minor harmony super imposed over the major figured bass

using relative minor but playing harmonic minor harmony over the relative major
so in the key of C you would use A harmonic minor harmony to harmonize many of the chords

lets look at major harmony and then you are on your own

III VI V I  use the gospel harmony for this progression or Jazz harmony

7-3-6-2-5-1  use Gospel harmony for this progression

7-3-6 use minor harmony for this one

plkay with these progressions until you know them

I have used these progressions to play almost every song I know

you have to ask your self if I am going to my IV how can I get there

you can do a II V I starting on the II of the IV or any of the tritone ideas
so if you were going to f in the key of C
you could get hte by doing
 Gmin9-C7 Fmajor9

you could also walk up to it by playing I  II III   Iv

what if you were going to the V you could do a II7 to the V7  or you could do
VI7  Vi7  V7

if you were going back to the one you could do

III  bIII II bII


one last final idea and I am really out you need to know this gospel blues play this in every key and you will be surprised how many songs you can play with it


C7   |    C7/E     |    F7 |   F#dim7 |   C7/G   |  Bb7  |    A7|    D7  |  G7sus |

C7   |  F7   |  C7      |  G7

I may have stuk an extra measure in there its supposed to be twelve bars mabe the Bb7 and A7 share the measure but anywyay this form will automatically give you a gospel flavor

I expect you to get back to me with your progress and I would like to have your help with my classical exploration I only read a little I work on John thomp[son series I am only on book 3 and i am trying simple bach and beetoven czerny school of velicity it is just hard going without a teacher to motivate and gude so if you can help me with this i would be glad to help you with the gospel

is that a deal?

[milt48]

Thanks.  I will try this stuff and get back to you as soon as possible.  I am by the way an excellent sight-reader.  That is my strongest ability.  But i got that way because i force myself to read everyday.  Don't use the john thompson books because i personally don not like them.  that is my advice.  there are plenty other newer books that are much better like the alfred serires.  piano is not something that i would recommend teaching yourself, although it can be done. 

[Spiritfingaz]

All I can say is Amen to the what people have replied in saying I too am classically trained and struggled for an extremely long time with playing gospel until I got a teacher that specialized in gospel but also had a music degree so he knew theory, etc. Its totally about feeling the music in side of you and allowing it to be birthed in real time. Since you are a reader my advice to you is to purchase any songbooks from John P. Kee, Kurt Carr, T.D. Jakes Potter House mass choir "The Storm is Over Now," and any Richard Smallwood books and read those songs along with listening to the CD's after you've read them and then practice with them together. The reason I've mentioned these particular artists esp. John P. Kee is because they cover a wide range of the types of things you will encounter in gospel music. Believe it or not you are ahead of the game because you know how to read and although not everything that is done in gospel music is transcribed perfectly, you have a really good guide. These chord changes that are in these songs can be applied to almost every gospel song in some form of interpretation you just have to develop your ear to a point where you know where a particular change will go or you will know when to do a dimished change or a change between 7th chords or flatted fifths. I hope this helps, it should it brought me a long way. Also listening to others play and trying to mimick what they do….Be blessed!

[diverse379]

I  didnt even think about that one Spirit fingers

I guess I was so into opening up the brothers ear but it is great to get him started with what he already knows

while you are at it get your hands on the best of yolanda adams song book

her muscians are excellent

and get as many wow gospel song books as you can 2005 2003 2002 2001 2000 199 1998 I havent heard 2004

The arrangements are often arranged for piano so you can get some good comping ideas from these books

hezikah has a song book and Kirk franklin has several from most of his albulms

so these should keep you busy

but dont forget to listen and practice catching songs off records
This is part of the job as well

[gtsjames]

This is good reading, alot of stuff packed into one post...
couple of things that I wouldnt mind you expounding on
1.

you can approach any chord from a diminished below or a major7 above or a dominant with a b5 or a #5 above or below

2.

a lot of gospel is just minor harmony super imposed over the major figured bass
using relative minor but playing harmonic minor harmony over the relative major
so in the key of C you would use A harmonic minor harmony to harmonize many of the chords

would definitely appreciate a little bit of detail or an example of each
-SJ

[diverse379]

This is for GTS and 4 his glory
I play harmonic minor harmony and use melodic minor bass lines

I mmmaj7  opr minor6/9
II minor7 b5
bIII  maj7#5
IV  min7
V7
Vi min7b5
VII dim


But there is something Else I discovered recently

If you are in Eb maj and you are playing a song

you could use the following structure

This is a 1- 7-3-6-2 -5-1-4-  in Cmin relative minor of Eb
then a 5 1 in Eb
Cmin7
Bdim7
Ebmaj
Abmaj7 (remember B natural is the 7 which makesAbb the l 6)
Dminor7b5  (D is the 2 so we break the normal cycle of fourths here)
G7b9b13
Cmin7
fmin7
Bbsus7  now we are back in the key of Eb
Eb maj

I havent used aolean mode in a long time but when I do I play  it my Five chord is a dominant or i will play it first as a minor then change it to a dominant within the measure

 
 As far as the diminished and major 7 passing chords

try playing a !-6-2-5-1 flinstone changes
  I .    Bbmajoor7
  VI.   G7
 II.     C-7
  V.    F7

and precede your six with the diminished a half step below

if you are in Bb play the F# diminishe before the G
play the B diminished before the C
and the E diminshed before the F

simple and easy

now try playing the Abmajor7 above the G
The Dbmaj7 above the C
and the F# majo7 above the F

or try playing the Ab7b5 before the G chord
Db7b5 before the C chord and
the F#7b5 before the F chord

this is basic jazz stuff that you can insert in any progression

I have managed to use very simple voicings and I can make nice passses even though I do not have very sophisticated voicings
Now That I have a little knowledge under my belt I can begin studying voicings

The harmonic structure and compositional integrity has always been my focus

but now I am ready for some voicings
 

[gtsjames]

This is for GTS and 4 his glory
I play harmonic minor harmony and use melodic minor bass lines

I mmmaj7  opr minor6/9
II minor7 b5
bIII  maj7#5
IV  min7
V7
Vi min7b5
VII dim


But there is something Else I discovered recently

If you are in Eb maj and you are playing a song

you could use the following structure

Cmin7
Bdim7
F-9
Bb 7
Eb maj7
Abmaj7
dmin7b5
G7b9b13
Cmin7
fmin7
Bbsus7
Eb maj

I havent used aolean mode in a long time but when I do I play my Five chord as a dominant or i will play it first as a minor then change it to a dominant within the measure

 
 As far as the diminished

try playing a !-6-2-5-1 flinstone changes

and precede your six with the diminished a half step below

if you are in Bb play the F# diminishe before the G
play the B diminished before the C
and the E diminshed before the F

simple and easy

now try playing the Abmajor7 above the G
The Dbmaj7 above the C
and the F# majo7 above the F

or try playing the Ab7b5 before the G chord
Db7b5 before the C chord and
the F#7b5 before the F chord

this is basic jazz stuff that you can insert in any progression

I have managed to use very simple voicings and I can make nice passses even though I do not have very sophisticated voicings
Now That I have a little knowledge under my belt I can begin studying voicings

The harmonic structure and compositional integrity has always been my focus

but now I am ready for some voicings
 

this is interesting stuff. I will have to go home and try this....

[jlewis]

before we get offf this Cadence lets add some fill chords do you know that you can approach any chord from a diminished below or a major7 above
or a dominant with a b5 or a #5 above or below

well you know now


Diverse this right here is a gold nugget.   I already knew about approaching from a diminished below I do this all the time.  I didn't know about  a major7 above  or the augmented dominant.

I don't post much, but just know that I am reading your stuff.  You are giving away diamonds  for free.


jlewis