Too Much Pocket

[Audiocr381ve]

Maybe it wasn't the kind of groove/style of drumming the group was looking for? It could be just that.

[hendoo]

THAT'S A GOOD POINT AUDIO38!!!!!!!!

[corbro007]

and maybe he was a brillant pocket player that had bad work ethics and always late for rehearsals and gigs there has to be more to the story....

[fretai03]

This is something that I can identify with big time!

I am not really a "pocket" player but I have been playing straight grooves
for so long that I realised I hadn't learned to play creatively because contemporary christian P&W music, on this side,
maintains a straight rock beat in 90% of all songs. Whether its slow or fast there is always elements of rock in it.

Which is also why I have made the move to gospel because of the creativity that pours out of gospel music. It's something
that draws me because of my "dull" groove playing.

I guess you guys, sometimes, feel the same "dull" effects because you have been saturated in gospel most of your lives
or were attached to it in big ways. (Something which I picked up from Da Drumma's comments in dway's thread)

Needless to say, this has brought new life to my playing.

So... I do believe there is a point where too much "groove" (Sabe, I'm still sketchy on the terminology) is an influence on the involved drummer.
But to say that anyone could sit down, watch a dude play & say it's too much pocket?

Thats beyond me...

[SabianKnight]

A straight simple pattern is often called for but is not necessarily creative and in support of the spirit of the music. When fast with liitations of keeping the pattern simple we have to exercise creative voicings. Put the back beat on the floor tom or put it on the kick. Work the sub-division with adding a feeling of the tempo speeding uo. Swiing the 8th note instead of driving them up and down. Adding doubles to certain notes as 32nd notes. Syncopating the groove. Adding ghost notes. Maximizing the dynamics.

Listen to Bernard Purdie, Jeff Porcaro, Steve Gadd on any Steely Dan tune and you'll hear what I am talking about.

Play around the click rather than being handcuffed by it.

[JFunky]

....I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why it is that the word "Pocket" gets misused.  It's already been stated that our first priority is to play for the music or song.  Now, if you do your fills or rolls tastefully within the music or the song when it calls for it, guess what?  You are still playing "Pocket".  I have a Live Concert with Sonny Emory playing the kit for Bruce Hornsby (Monster Pianist) and he played pocket all night.  What does that mean?  He played each song, when he was given the opportunity to elevate the music he did it in his unique way and he took the band to another level.  Dennis Chambers, with all the chops he has, plays pocket for Santana.  If some of you guys were to hear him you'd say, "NO WAY, He's killin."  I'd say, "He's playing Pocket because the fills and the creativity is within the song."  He's just adding flava or in Santanas' case, "El Sabor." 

[MaestroDivine]

....I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why it is that the word "Pocket" gets misused.  It's already been stated that our first priority is to play for the music or song.  Now, if you do your fills or rolls tastefully within the music or the song when it calls for it, guess what?  You are still playing "Pocket".  I have a Live Concert with Sonny Emory playing the kit for Bruce Hornsby (Monster Pianist) and he played pocket all night.  What does that mean?  He played each song, when he was given the opportunity to elevate the music he did it in his unique way and he took the band to another level.  Dennis Chambers, with all the chops he has, plays pocket for Santana.  If some of you guys were to hear him you'd say, "NO WAY, He's killin."  I'd say, "He's playing Pocket because the fills and the creativity is within the song."  He's just adding flava or in Santanas' case, "El Sabor." 

A monster pianist?

I have so many piano albums, that I'd be diagnosed as clinically insane if anyone found out ....and I've never heard of him...

Let me do some research!

[SabianKnight]

....I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why it is that the word "Pocket" gets misused.  It's already been stated that our first priority is to play for the music or song.  Now, if you do your fills or rolls tastefully within the music or the song when it calls for it, guess what?  You are still playing "Pocket".  I have a Live Concert with Sonny Emory playing the kit for Bruce Hornsby (Monster Pianist) and he played pocket all night.  What does that mean?  He played each song, when he was given the opportunity to elevate the music he did it in his unique way and he took the band to another level.  Dennis Chambers, with all the chops he has, plays pocket for Santana.  If some of you guys were to hear him you'd say, "NO WAY, He's killin."  I'd say, "He's playing Pocket because the fills and the creativity is within the song."  He's just adding flava or in Santanas' case, "El Sabor." 

A monster pianist?

You never heard of Bruce Hornsby? Wow! He is very under-rated because he does his own thing. 

I have so many piano albums, that I'd be diagnosed as clinically insane if anyone found out ....and I've never heard of him...

Let me do some research!

[JFunky]

... No way "D".  You've never heard of Bruce Hornsby?  He graduated from University of Miami (Florida).  The same class with Pat Metheny if I'm not mistaken.  I think Danny Gottlieb (Jazz Drummer) was in that same class.  Those guys are Monsters.  Bruce is sponsored by Steinway & Sons.  

[j-is-my-joy]

Hold them up, hold them up


  a

I feel the same about just playing the beat.  Most drummers starting out can do that.
But also most I see want to fill in all the spaces with runs, and cymbals.  I think as a musician
matures, he or she, learns when and how much "color" to add to the song.
Being able to play the pocket with feeling, and then when the time comes, and God is moving
be able to raise the intensity, and let the "Spirit" take over.  For me that's when I have
the best time playing.  During those times I play things that If I tried on my own couldn't.
Being able to to add just what the song and mood calls for is what I'm striving for.
To me, there needs to be a balance.

For Him, DJ
 

                      I feel that me too!!!                          

[kaddw]

what up everybody. I would just like to add my two cents and exp. to this. Were talking about secular music....  and alot of times there actually looking for something different.
 Example. Israel and New Breed the newest one live in South Africa, you can tell that Mike is a R&b drummer simply by how he is playing. Thats what alot of R&B artist like. And even though on the Israel and New breed before this one your boy laid it down nicely but do you recognize the difference?
Last but not least if they don't like you there going to get rid of you.

[fretai03]

A straight simple pattern is often called for but is not necessarily creative and in support of the spirit of the music.

That right thurr is the truth! It  is the story of my drumming life... Good, bad & ugly. Sabe you know me so well!

Will also check out the Steely Dan stuff with Steve Gadd to really get a feel for pocket drumming.

JFunky, thanks for the insight on pocket drumming. Will assess steve gadd watching his full performance in the manner you have stated.

[SabianKnight]

... No way "D".  You've never heard of Bruce Hornsby?  He graduated from University of Miami (Florida).  The same class with Pat Metheny if I'm not mistaken.  I think Danny Gottlieb (Jazz Drummer) was in that same class.  Those guys are Monsters.  Bruce is sponsored by Steinway & Sons. 

Rod Morganstein was the drummer in that class (not sure about Danny)  jazz/fusion/rock drummer and Asst. Professor at Berkley (left handed double-bass monster) author of several books including Drumset Musician, R Berklee Practice Method.

[SabianKnight]

This explains how one can have too much pocket. It allow points out that pocket and groove are two totally different (yet intertwined) things.

Here is an excert from Modern Drummer Magazine-March 2006 issue (Bozzio cover). This is from the "Pocket Monster" himself, Michael White's interview (taken from pg 88):

MD: So how does one learn to groove? If you were giving a lesson to someone who wants to do what you do, what would you tell them?

Michael: The first thing I would say is that everybody has an inner clock. You have to get in touch with your own body clock. If you're playing and it's not making you move, or if you have to break your "sway" to do a fill, something's not grooving. You should have a certain strut about your playing, that strut should never change, whether it's a fill, a break, or accents. That strut should always be there.

People get nervous about click tracks. Playing to a click track is quite different fro playing with a loop. Young kids can play great with loops. They ride on the loop and do all sorts of craziness. But with a click, you have to make it work for you. You have to make the click feel good. It's just a machine, so you have to play around that click and make it feel like it's got a hump to it.

Sometimes people play with clicks and it feels stiff. The tempo might be right, but it's not grooving. It's too straight. Being in time and having a groove are totally different things. In my opinion, you have to be committed to the groove.

[Eccentric-Rhythm]

....I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why it is that the word "Pocket" gets misused.  It's already been stated that our first priority is to play for the music or song.  Now, if you do your fills or rolls tastefully within the music or the song when it calls for it, guess what?  You are still playing "Pocket".  I have a Live Concert with Sonny Emory playing the kit for Bruce Hornsby (Monster Pianist) and he played pocket all night.  What does that mean?  He played each song, when he was given the opportunity to elevate the music he did it in his unique way and he took the band to another level.  Dennis Chambers, with all the chops he has, plays pocket for Santana.  If some of you guys were to hear him you'd say, "NO WAY, He's killin."  I'd say, "He's playing Pocket because the fills and the creativity is within the song."  He's just adding flava or in Santanas' case, "El Sabor." 

I think thats the problem JFunky...There are different definitions and opinions as to what POCKET is. If the TRUE definition of Pocket is as you described. Then Pocket is what is required. But I know some that consider Pocket to be just holding the time...not one single fill or any creativity. You brought a very good point. We need to know the actual thought when someones says POCKET.

God Bless.

[SabianKnight]

This explains how one can have too much pocket. It allow points out that pocket and groove are two totally different (yet intertwined) things.

Here is an excert from Modern Drummer Magazine-March 2006 issue (Bozzio cover). This is from the "Pocket Monster" himself, Michael White's interview (taken from pg 88):

MD: So how does one learn to groove? If you were giving a lesson to someone who wants to do what you do, what would you tell them?

Michael: The first thing I would say is that everybody has an inner clock. You have to get in touch with your own body clock. If you're playing and it's not making you move, or if you have to break your "sway" to do a fill, something's not grooving. You should have a certain strut about your playing, that strut should never change, whether it's a fill, a break, or accents. That strut should always be there.

People get nervous about click tracks. Playing to a click track is quite different fro playing with a loop. Young kids can play great with loops. They ride on the loop and do all sorts of craziness. But with a click, you have to make it work for you. You have to make the click feel good. It's just a machine, so you have to play around that click and make it feel like it's got a hump to it.

Sometimes people play with clicks and it feels stiff. The tempo might be right, but it's not grooving. It's too straight. Being in time and having a groove are totally different things. In my opinion, you have to be committed to the groove.

Michael White EARNED THE NICK NAME POCKET MOSTER folks. Pay attention to what he is saying. Pick up some Maze featuring Franky Beverly recording and listen and feel. what he is playing on there. Your head never stops bobbin' because of his pocket feels good. That makes the groove work. That drives the groove. Without that feeling the groove is just a repeating pattern with know identity.

[hihat]

whats up fam I haven't posted in awhile but chek this out. I'm interested in getting opinions on this subject, it mite be old but oh well, here goes, the situation is one of my homeys landed 2 gigs, secular, one with Anthony Hamilton and the other with K-ci and JoJo, however he got fired from the both of them because he was so pocket, trust me the dude got skills but I don't know what his problem was, he's very clean and precise, I do know with the Hamilton gig, Anthony's wife wanted her cousin on the drums so that pushed him out the door fo sho", and with K-ci they flew him out to Japan an within a week he was bak, so I would like to get feedbak from all yall greatdrummers on here is there a such thing as" TOO MUCH POCKET", me personally I think it is, I mite get crucified for this but, I call it being a boring drummer with no flava and taste, oh yeah he's like around 30-32 so that mite be it he's jus old and stubborn...haha, hit me bak with OPINIONS

I don't wan't to put his name out there because you didn't but, are his initials S.H.???