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Author Topic: For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants  (Read 1430 times)

rjthakid

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« on: January 30, 2006, 11:07:08 AM »
I learn some new theory everyday.

This is what a musician friend of mine taught me today......

The Reason why the dominant (or 'V') chord resolves so nicely to the 'I' (the key you're playing in) is because the Major third of the V is also the Leading Note.  

ex:

In the Key of C
'G' is Dominant (or 'V')

In G Major Triad: G-B-D, the 'B' (Major Third) is also the "Leading Note", meaning it's the note right before the I (C).

Now we know WHY the five leads to the I (I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT!!!)

But what happens if we make one of the Minor chords (ii, iii, iv) a MAJOR chord?  It becomes what is called a Secondary Dominant!

If I make the ii (D in the key of C) Major by raising the Minor third(F) to a Major third(F#), it now leads me to the V (G).  My musician friend says it makes the G, if only briefly, tonic.  This Secondary Dominant would be called "Five of Five" or V/V in that it is the Dominant fifth of G (which is the fifth in the key of C)....Yea, I was confused at first too.  LOL.

another example, if I make the iii (E) Major by raising the Minor third (G) to a MAJOR third(G#) it now leads me to the vi (A).  Why?  because G# is right before A.  So this Secondary dominant would be "Five of Six", or V/vi, because it is the Dominant Fifth of A (which is the sixth in the key of C).

It took me a few minutes, but I think I got it now.  Knowing what to play is good....Knowing WHY you play what you play, and WHY it sounds good is better.  Keep learning my fellow beginners.  We'll get there.

Offline 4hisglory

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HOw.....
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2006, 11:16:14 AM »
rjthakid, how long have you been playing??
:)

Offline nessalynn77

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 11:20:40 AM »
I think I got it, I'm gonna print go over it tonight when I get home to my keyboard.  Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

rjthakid

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 11:21:27 AM »
I got my keyboard on Christmas and I've been working my butt off since.  I was up till 2am this morning practicing.    :D

I'm still very much a beginner, but I'm completely throwing myself into this.

rjthakid

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Re: For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 12:16:25 PM »
Quote from: rjthakid
But what happens if we make one of the Minor chords (ii, iii, iv) a MAJOR chord?


Typo city.  That (ii, iii, iv) was supposed to be (ii, iii, vi)

Offline T-Block

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2006, 10:36:35 AM »
rjthakid wrote:

Quote
The Reason why the dominant (or 'V') chord resolves so nicely to the 'I'



Before this discussions goes on any further, let me clear something up that people misinterpret a lot.  A dominant chord wants to resolve to 4 of the chord, not always to 1.  This goes for any dominant chord in any key.  Now, if that resolution chord happens to be a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 then that is great.  But, make sure yall understand exactly where a dominant chord wants to resolve to.  All the other information is correct about the 3rd note being the leading tone.  Let's look at some examples:

C / C-Eb-G (C minor chord)
C / C-E-G (C major chord, Eb becomes E, which is leading tone in key of F)
or
Bb / C-E-G (C7 chord, same other stuff as above)
F / C-F-A (resolves to 4 of C, which is F)

D / D-F-A (D minor chord)
D / D-F#-A ( D major chord, F becomes F#, which is leading tone in the key of G)
or
C / D-F#-A (D7 chord, same other stuff as above)
G / D-G-B (resolves to 4 of D, which is G)

Bb / Bb-Db-F (Bb minor chord)
Bb / Bb-D-F ( Bb major chord, Db becomes D, which is leading tone in the key of Eb)
or
Ab / Bb-D-F (Bb7 chord, same other stuff as above)
Eb / Bb-Eb-G (resolves to 4 of Eb)

Yall see what I mean?  Key is really irrelevent for where a dominant chord or a dominant 7th chord wants to resolve to cuz that resolution chord ain't always 1.  The reason why I say "wants to resolve" because depending on the key you could resolve to 3 or 6.  Here is an illustration using one of the above examples:

C / C-Eb-G (C minor chord)
Bb / C-E-G (C7 chord, Eb becomes E, which is leading tone in key of F)
F / C-F-A (resolves to 4 of C, which is F)
or
*A / C-F-A (resolves to 6 in the key of C or 3 in the key of F)

*Notice that the RH part of the chord is still 4 in the key of C, but since there is an A in the bass, it changes the entire chord to 3 or 6 depending on what key you in.  In other words, it is an inversion.

You see that?  The resolution chord can be so many things other than 1, but it can also resolve to 1 or 5. Let me show you:

C / C-Eb-G (C minor chord)
C / C-E-G (C major chord, Eb becomes E, which is leading tone in key of F)
*C / C-F-A (resolves to 1 in the key of C or 5 in the key of F)

*Notice that the RH part of the chord is still 4 in the key of C, but since there is a C in the bass, it changes the entire chord to a 1 or 5 depending on what key you in.  In other words, it is also an inversion.

Now, I have just showed you that a dominant chord can resolve to 1, 3, 5, and 6. You can also keep that secondary dominant principle going on forever if you wanted to.  Here it is:

C / C-Eb-G
C / C-E-G or Bb / C-E-G
F / C-F-Ab
F / C-F-A or Eb / C-F-A
Bb / Db-F-Bb
Bb / D-F-Bb or Ab / D-F-Bb
Eb / Eb-Gb-Bb
Eb / Eb-G-Bb or Db / Eb-G-Bb
Ab / Eb-Ab-Cb
Ab / Eb-Ab-C or Gb / Eb-Ab-C
Db / Fb-Ab-Db
Db / F-Ab-Db or Cb / F-Ab-Db

Gb / Gb-Bbb-Db
Gb / Gb-Bb-Db or Fb / Gb-Bb-Db
F# / F#-A-C#
F# / F#-A#-C# or E / F#-A#-C#

B / F#-B-D
B / F#-B-D# or A / F#-B-D#
E / G-B-E
E / G#-B-E or D / G#-B-E
A / A-C-E
A / A-C#-E or G / A-C#-A
D / A-D-F
D / A-D-F# or C / A-D-F#
G / Bb-D-G
G / B-D-F or F / B-D-F
(repeat, you are back to where you started from)  

Does that make sense?  This thing gets real deep and you can get lost if you ain't careful.  Once you understand how to utilize dominants and secondary dominants, it opens up a whole new world of music.  Richard Smallwood, Daryl Coley, Kurt Carr, etc. all these great gospepl music artists use secondary dominants a lot, a whole lot.  If anybody needs more help with this, let me know, but I think this post explains it all.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline ddw4e

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2006, 10:43:00 AM »
You explained it very well..Great job! :D
MERCY EN!!

rjthakid

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2006, 01:56:07 PM »
What we have here is a failure to communicate.  lol.  

I said "Dominant Chord" which may have caused some confusion.  

To be more clear I should've said a chord who's Root is the Dominant note of whatever key you're playing in.

ie  in the key of C, GMaj resolves nicely to C.  I even put 'V' to signify the scale degree.

But my terminology was incorrect.

(Bear in mind I've only been playing for a month)

Offline T-Block

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2006, 02:12:15 PM »
LOL!!! I know what you meant rjthakid, i just want to make sure you use correct terminology that's all.  Dominant goes to 4 of the chord.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline 4hisglory

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2006, 02:47:41 PM »
Quote from: rjthakid

ie  in the key of C, GMaj resolves nicely to C.  I even put 'V' to signify the scale degree.


Don't you mean that G7 resolves nicely to C?? :D :D :D
:)

rjthakid

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2006, 08:31:53 AM »
That's not what I meant, but you're right, G7 does resolve to C more than GMaj.

I was only listing G & C as an example of how the V of a key resolves to the Tonic.  Trying to keep it simple for my fellow beginners.

Offline 4hisglory

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More Theory info
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2006, 08:49:55 AM »
Also, the b2 resolves good to the tonic (I).

Why you ask???  Lets look at the chords (iun the key of C)

Db7 = Db F Ab B ...........b2
G7 = G B D F ..............V

Notice how the "meat" (the 3rd and 7th) of the chords are the same (but flipped flopped)

So u can do:

G / D G F B
C / C E G B

or

Db /  Db F Ab B
C / C E G B

I think its important for beginners to understand this.  This is how people that that "phat" sound via 'Flavt 5 of 5 substitution'.
:)

rjthakid

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2006, 09:18:24 AM »
Wow!  Thanks man.  And please, if you guys see me or any other beginner make a mistake, or just have a little something extra to add like 4hisglory just did, feel free to comment.  If I could find someone in the NYC area to show me some things I would, but till then, I'll have to keep reading books and scouring the internet for info. :cry:  

4hisglory.....Did Hartwells DVD demonstrate how you can form Phat Chords on your own?  Right now I'm stuck on Triads with the occasion seventh thrown in.

Offline sjonathan02

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2006, 09:35:04 AM »
Quote from: rjthakid
Wow!  Thanks man.  And please, if you guys see me or any other beginner make a mistake, or just have a little something extra to add like 4hisglory just did, feel free to comment.  If I could find someone in the NYC area to show me some things I would, but till then, I'll have to keep reading books and scouring the internet for info. :cry:  

4hisglory.....Did Hartwells DVD demonstrate how you can form Phat Chords on your own?  Right now I'm stuck on Triads with the occasion seventh thrown in.



Taking a page from Jermaine's Griggs DVDs, try playing the 2nd degree of a scale with your major chord:

Ex. (in C)

L.H./R.H.

CG/CDEG or
CG/DEG or
CG/EGD

Try adding that '2' to your major chord (called an add 9) so it would read

Cadd9

You could even add the 7th you mentioned to the same chords above (it'll still be a Cadd9 chord).

Now, if you add the dom7th it would be a C9 chord. So it would look like this:

CGBb/DEG

I have other things that I like to do, but I'm not sure if I can explain as clearly as say a T-Block or DDwe can, so I'll leave it at this for now.

I hope this helps
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

rjthakid

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2006, 09:47:43 AM »
Yes it helps!  Playing basic triads causes music to sound Vanilla.  These are the types of tips that would help a beginner to grow.

Offline sjonathan02

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For us Beginners: Secondary Dominants
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2006, 09:52:02 AM »
Quote from: rjthakid
Yes it helps!  Playing basic triads causes music to sound Vanilla.  These are the types of tips that would help a beginner to grow.


I'm glad that I could help cause I'm like an "advanced beginner"...I guess.

Or, more accurately, I hope  :wink:
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.
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