The Demonization Of Chops ...

[Mud]

Over the past few years, I've heard an over-abundance of musicians speak of 'the pocket'. Now, I'm fully aware of the SUPREME importance of the groove, however - I think many musicians are now, with this narrow-minded approach to music,  taking some of the thrill and joy out of being a musician.

Their is definitely a musical elitist club out there among, mostly, older musicians. How does one get in? Think of the groove as the end-all, and be-all, and you've officially become a member of said club. The, often times, younger musicians aren't as enthusiastic about being human metronomes, and so they're deemed immature, until they're willin' to changed their views on what music is about, and how it should be played. Yet, I find it interesting .. that they seem to be the ones having the most fun, and don't have that sour look on their faces while they're playing. It's not a job to them, it's the thing that brings them joy.

Where do I stand personally?

I believe in balance. I look at it like a meal. The groove is the actual meal itself, yet unseasoned. Each person's taste differs from the next, but many can agree on when food is under-seasoned, seasoned perfectly, or over-seasoned.

As I've aged, I've become less and less impressed with drummers who feel the need to try every chop they know, in every song they play. I'm also weary of those musicians who claim to love playing, but they take it sooo seriously, that they never crack a smile, and they verbally assault any musician who isn't indifferent to chops.

I understand what will get you work. However, that's kind of the issue ... music has become 'work'. When it becomes 'work' ... that's when, in my opinion, you begin to lose the thrill. We become so hypnotized into thinking 'groove only' by musicians that we respect ... that we fail to see that we're too concerned by what other musicians think, to loosen up, and have SOME fun, like we did when we were younger musicians.

I think, both the older musicians, and the younger musicians could learn a thing or two from each other. Anybody can hold down the groove, and every should/must learn to do so. However, I feel that, chops are where we really begin to explore the limitless possibilities that music have to over. It's where we begin to tap into our creative Selves, and establish our own musical identities.

Gerald Heyward, Chris Dave, Dennis Chambers .. can all play the same song, but how do we REALLY tell the one from the other? What they do in those 'empty spaces'.

Discipline & Fun, friends.  Don't take music to seriously, but don't take it too lightly, either. That's something I think many of us can stand to learn.

~OD

[gospodruma]

good one..good point...especiall comparing Dennis, Chris and Gerald...good point

[SabianKnight]

Very valid points however the fact is that NOT EVERYBODY can hold down a groove. Reason they can't is they don't actually understand how to play time.  The drum machines that dominate today's production environment are nothing but modified metronomes. The truth is that every lick/chop/phrase/note has it's place in time so you have to be a metronome in a sense but, with human emotion, not in a sterile since of a ticking Timex.

Chops is slang for technique as you know but it has become a demon of sorts in that chops has become a rebel and technique has become like a geek musician and ostrisized. Musicianship is all about balance and order. I will recount a quote from Elvin Jones, Modern Drummer 2003 cover, One cannot experience true freedom without boundaries. The boundaries of musicianship is technique (form and accuracy) however technique is virtually limitless for the diligent whom strive to it's continued growth. In other words you get out what you put in. Fact is most young musicians don't put in anything of substance. They steal shop lift a riff call it a lick and abuse it for lack of technique all in the name of having fun. Then we actually claim to have respect for the artist that we took it from... true respect for that artist would be to commit to the same kind of time that it took the "victim' artist to develop his mental comprehension and physical technique create and or modify the "lick/chop" in the first place. We see a guy doing a Pataflafla on the kit and and act like it is God's gift and want to "sprinkle " it everywhere in music like a dog mark it's tree never understanding that it is part of a drummers BASIC alphabet and has it's place in the language of music. Instead we sound like a bad stuttering problem and blame it on the anointing.

Wearing a facade of a smile doesn't mean that you are having fun nor does te face of concentration mean that you are not having fun. In when I am seriously having fun playing I look really ticked of because of the "stank" of the funk being layed down. I sometimes have the same intense look I had on the football field when I meant to take your head off starting  at your belly button. Why?! Because I was having fun knocking folk into next week.

The older players (and this is evident in the January 2006 issue of Modern Drummer on The Future of Drumming-see Steve Smith comments especially) want the younger guys to stop short changing themselves and the musicians that brought them this far. Society sufferes from a lack of respect and accountability toward it's individual responsibility.

A person with a smile on his face doing the happy dance is living a lie if the can only sign their name with an "X" because the never learned to read and right. How can they effectivey change their environment? Same can be said for us that think a flamadiddle is the new breakfast at IHOP but really like when Tony Royster, Jr. did that "chop/lick"... which was a flamadiddle.

The best pockets on the planet have the best chops: Dennis, Vinnie, Steve Gadd, Purdie, Porcaro, Lang, Donati, Jojo Mayer, Sonny Emory, Chris Dave, Lil John Roberts, Stubblefield, Starks, Benny Greb, Zoro, Russ Miller and the list goes on. Why? They took time to actually know what they were talking about musically. Maturity is not a thing of age it is a thing of accountability. 

Having fun is achieving purpose and bearing good fruit and you cannot do that half-stepping. It is a joy to play music... fun is a facade, and that is on purpose. To much is given much is required. David says in Psalm 119 that It is good that he was afflicted that he might learn God's precepts. He goes on to say that he knows that "by faithfulness" God has afflicted Him. To me (SK) that speaks of accountabilty and responsibility to learn from where one is to get him to where he should be.

[SabianKnight]

Great commentary Divin....


Man up LGM.

[Mud]

Very valid points however the fact is that NOT EVERYBODY can hold down a groove. Reason they can't is they don't actually understand how to play time.  The drum machines that dominate today's production environment are nothing but modified metronomes. The truth is taht every good not has it's place in time so you have to be a metronome in a sense but, with human emotion, not in a sterile since of a ticking Timex.

Chops is slang for technique as you know but it has become a demon of sorts in that chops has become a rebel and technique has become like a geek musician and ostrisized. Musicianship is all about balance and order. I will recount a quote from Elvin Jones, Modern Drummer 2003 cover, One cannot experience true freedom without boundaries. The boundaries of musicianship is technique (form and accuracy) however technique is virtually limitless for the diligent whom strive to it's continued growth. In other words you get out what you put in. Fact is most young musicians don't put in anything of substance. They steal shop lift a riff call it a lick and abuse it for lack of technique all in the name of having fun. Then we actually claim to have respect for the artist that we took it from... true respect for that artist would be to commit to the same kind of time that it took the "victim' artist to develop his mental comprehension and physical technique create and or modify the "lick/chop" in the first place. We see a guy doing a Pataflafla on the kit and and act like it is God's gift and want to "sprinkle " it everywhere in music like a dog mark it's tree never understanding that it is part of a drummers BASIC alphabet and has it's place in the language of music. Instead we sound like a bad stuttering problem and blame it on the annointing.

Wearing a facade of a smile doesn't mean that you are having fun nor does te face of concetration mean that you are not having fun. In when I am seiously having fun playing I look realy ticked of because of the "stank" of the funk being layed down. I sometimes have the same intense look I had on the football field when I meant to take your head off snarting  at your belly button. Why?! Because I was having fun knocking folk into next week.

The older players (and this is evident in the January 2006 issue of Modern Drummer on The Future of Drumming-see Steve Smith comments especially) want the younger guys to stop short changing themselves and the musicians that brought them this far. Society sufferes from a lack of respect and accountability toward it's individual responsibility.

A person with a smile on his face doing the happy dance is living a lie if the can only sign their name with an "X" because the never learned to read and right. How can they effectivley change their environment? Same can be said for us that think a flamadiddle is the new breakfast at IHOP but really like when Tony Royster did that "chop/lick"... which was a flamadiddle.

The best pockets on the planet have the best chops: Dennis, Vinnie, Steve Gadd, Purdie, Porcaro, Lang, Donati, Jojo Mayer, Sonny Emory, Chris Dave, Lil John Roberts, Stubblefield, Starks, Benny Greb, Zoro, Russ Miller and the list goes on. Why? They took time to actually know what they were talking about musically. Maturity is not a thing of age it is a thing of accountability.  

Having fun is acheiving purpose and bearing good fruit and you cannot do that half-stepping. It is a joy to play music... fun is a facade, and that is on purpose. To much is given much is required. David says in Psalm 119 that It is good that he was afflicted that he might learn God's precepts. He goes on to say that he knows that "by faithfulness" God has afflicted Him. To me (SK) that speaks of accountabilty and responsibility to learn from where one is to get him to where he should be.

Good points, SabianKnight.

I'd also like to add that what I said here, OBVIOUSLY, is just my perspective and interpretations. Some people will quickly assume that you're presenting your opinion as the absolute Truth.

I don't really disagree with anything you have to say here, SabianKnight. However, I do know that music has become 'work' to a lot of musicians, and I do see more of a love and passion in younger musicians, than I do in a lot of older ones. Maybe it's more of a controlled passion. I don't know...

However, I truly believe that a lot musicians are very uptight, 'cause they don't want to displease the people who set the standard for what's proper and improper. Their peers.... the ones they most respect ...


Excellent response, tho'.

[SabianKnight]

However, I do know that music has become 'work' to a lot of musicians, and I do see more of a love and passion in younger musicians, than I do in a lot of older ones. Maybe it's more of a controlled passion. I don't know...

I think it is is partially because of the increase in electronics which is stealing the life out of music. It is taking away the responsibility for time playing (notational value and rhythmic understanding) off the human and putting it on a machine. The producer are demanding the humans to play like the machines which bring about haphazard playing... licks for no reason other than the machine did it having no musical precidence or relavance.

However, I truly believe that a lot musicians are very uptight, 'cause they don't want to displease the people who set the standard for what's proper and improper. Their peers.... the ones they most respect ...

A lot are uptight because their lack of knowledge and disciplined practice is catching up with them. It's is hard to grow when you are starving yourself of the nutrients of knowledge and proper practice (sunlight and water). Hanging too tightly to creative leaches rather than productice pro-active thinkers. Too many cheap clones of Too few acknowledged legitmate originals.

I know that your comments were objective views. i like this kind of interaction. Somebody is going to learn from this and that is a blessing.

[NoelII]

Sabianknight, I agree with and appreciate your post here. If you hadn't said it I would have. Also, another aspect of groove or pocket that no one seems to mention is dynamics. Overall dynamics betwen instruments, the dynamics between the instruments of the drumkit, and the dynamics within sections (verse/chorus/bridge,etc). I was just talking with about this the other day. Most upcoming gospel drummers are so LOUD. Then you get volume wars with the other instruments.

[SabianKnight]

Sabianknight, I agree with and appreciate your post here. If you hadn't said it I would have. Also, another aspect of groove or pocket that no one seems to mention is dynamics. Overall dynamics betwen instruments, the dynamics between the instruments of the drumkit, and the dynamics within sections (verse/chorus/bridge,etc). I was just talking with about this the other day. Most upcoming gospel drummers are so LOUD. Then you get volume wars with the other instruments.

Great point.

Fact is that most drummers don't understand the history of drums or music and musicianship to undersatnd that it is about communication. Music is a conversation between the band members. If everybody is talking loud at the same time no one is being "truly" heard.

Dynamics are a thing of musical discipline/maturity and personal and respect for the craft and the song. Players thinking they/their instrument/licks are more important than the overall composition will play loud. People whom are there for the privilege and to serve the composition and the audience that supporting them tend to play with dynamics.

[blaquegenius]

Very valid points however the fact is that NOT EVERYBODY can hold down a groove. Reason they can't is they don't actually understand how to play time.  The drum machines that dominate today's production environment are nothing but modified metronomes. The truth is taht every good not has it's place in time so you have to be a metronome in a sense but, with human emotion, not in a sterile since of a ticking Timex.

Chops is slang for technique as you know but it has become a demon of sorts in that chops has become a rebel and technique has become like a geek musician and ostrisized. Musicianship is all about balance and order. I will recount a quote from Elvin Jones, Modern Drummer 2003 cover, One cannot experience true freedom without boundaries. The boundaries of musicianship is technique (form and accuracy) however technique is virtually limitless for the diligent whom strive to it's continued growth. In other words you get out what you put in. Fact is most young musicians don't put in anything of substance. They steal shop lift a riff call it a lick and abuse it for lack of technique all in the name of having fun. Then we actually claim to have respect for the artist that we took it from... true respect for that artist would be to commit to the same kind of time that it took the "victim' artist to develop his mental comprehension and physical technique create and or modify the "lick/chop" in the first place. We see a guy doing a Pataflafla on the kit and and act like it is God's gift and want to "sprinkle " it everywhere in music like a dog mark it's tree never understanding that it is part of a drummers BASIC alphabet and has it's place in the language of music. Instead we sound like a bad stuttering problem and blame it on the annointing.

Wearing a facade of a smile doesn't mean that you are having fun nor does te face of concetration mean that you are not having fun. In when I am seiously having fun playing I look realy ticked of because of the "stank" of the funk being layed down. I sometimes have the same intense look I had on the football field when I meant to take your head off snarting  at your belly button. Why?! Because I was having fun knocking folk into next week.

The older players (and this is evident in the January 2006 issue of Modern Drummer on The Future of Drumming-see Steve Smith comments especially) want the younger guys to stop short changing themselves and the musicians that brought them this far. Society sufferes from a lack of respect and accountability toward it's individual responsibility.

A person with a smile on his face doing the happy dance is living a lie if the can only sign their name with an "X" because the never learned to read and right. How can they effectivley change their environment? Same can be said for us that think a flamadiddle is the new breakfast at IHOP but really like when Tony Royster did that "chop/lick"... which was a flamadiddle.

The best pockets on the planet have the best chops: Dennis, Vinnie, Steve Gadd, Purdie, Porcaro, Lang, Donati, Jojo Mayer, Sonny Emory, Chris Dave, Lil John Roberts, Stubblefield, Starks, Benny Greb, Zoro, Russ Miller and the list goes on. Why? They took time to actually know what they were talking about musically. Maturity is not a thing of age it is a thing of accountability.  

Having fun is acheiving purpose and bearing good fruit and you cannot do that half-stepping. It is a joy to play music... fun is a facade, and that is on purpose. To much is given much is required. David says in Psalm 119 that It is good that he was afflicted that he might learn God's precepts. He goes on to say that he knows that "by faithfulness" God has afflicted Him. To me (SK) that speaks of accountabilty and responsibility to learn from where one is to get him to where he should be.

THANK YOU and WELL SAID!!!

[JFunky]

*bump*

...

[bigblackdrummer]

Very valid points however the fact is that NOT EVERYBODY can hold down a groove. Reason they can't is they don't actually understand how to play time.  The drum machines that dominate today's production environment are nothing but modified metronomes. The truth is taht every good not has it's place in time so you have to be a metronome in a sense but, with human emotion, not in a sterile since of a ticking Timex.

Chops is slang for technique as you know but it has become a demon of sorts in that chops has become a rebel and technique has become like a geek musician and ostrisized. Musicianship is all about balance and order. I will recount a quote from Elvin Jones, Modern Drummer 2003 cover, One cannot experience true freedom without boundaries. The boundaries of musicianship is technique (form and accuracy) however technique is virtually limitless for the diligent whom strive to it's continued growth. In other words you get out what you put in. Fact is most young musicians don't put in anything of substance. They steal shop lift a riff call it a lick and abuse it for lack of technique all in the name of having fun. Then we actually claim to have respect for the artist that we took it from... true respect for that artist would be to commit to the same kind of time that it took the "victim' artist to develop his mental comprehension and physical technique create and or modify the "lick/chop" in the first place. We see a guy doing a Pataflafla on the kit and and act like it is God's gift and want to "sprinkle " it everywhere in music like a dog mark it's tree never understanding that it is part of a drummers BASIC alphabet and has it's place in the language of music. Instead we sound like a bad stuttering problem and blame it on the annointing.

Wearing a facade of a smile doesn't mean that you are having fun nor does te face of concetration mean that you are not having fun. In when I am seiously having fun playing I look realy ticked of because of the "stank" of the funk being layed down. I sometimes have the same intense look I had on the football field when I meant to take your head off snarting  at your belly button. Why?! Because I was having fun knocking folk into next week.

The older players (and this is evident in the January 2006 issue of Modern Drummer on The Future of Drumming-see Steve Smith comments especially) want the younger guys to stop short changing themselves and the musicians that brought them this far. Society sufferes from a lack of respect and accountability toward it's individual responsibility.

A person with a smile on his face doing the happy dance is living a lie if the can only sign their name with an "X" because the never learned to read and right. How can they effectivley change their environment? Same can be said for us that think a flamadiddle is the new breakfast at IHOP but really like when Tony Royster did that "chop/lick"... which was a flamadiddle.

The best pockets on the planet have the best chops: Dennis, Vinnie, Steve Gadd, Purdie, Porcaro, Lang, Donati, Jojo Mayer, Sonny Emory, Chris Dave, Lil John Roberts, Stubblefield, Starks, Benny Greb, Zoro, Russ Miller and the list goes on. Why? They took time to actually know what they were talking about musically. Maturity is not a thing of age it is a thing of accountability.  

Having fun is acheiving purpose and bearing good fruit and you cannot do that half-stepping. It is a joy to play music... fun is a facade, and that is on purpose. To much is given much is required. David says in Psalm 119 that It is good that he was afflicted that he might learn God's precepts. He goes on to say that he knows that "by faithfulness" God has afflicted Him. To me (SK) that speaks of accountabilty and responsibility to learn from where one is to get him to where he should be.

On point!!!

[dude-on-drums]

*bump*

...

yes, very good bump!   

[freddyfusion]

Over the past few years, I've heard an over-abundance of musicians speak of 'the pocket'. Now, I'm fully aware of the SUPREME importance of the groove, however - I think many musicians are now, with this narrow-minded approach to music,  taking some of the thrill and joy out of being a musician.

Their is definitely a musical elitist club out there among, mostly, older musicians. How does one get in? Think of the groove as the end-all, and be-all, and you've officially become a member of said club. The, often times, younger musicians aren't as enthusiastic about being human metronomes, and so they're deemed immature, until they're willin' to changed their views on what music is about, and how it should be played. Yet, I find it interesting .. that they seem to be the ones having the most fun, and don't have that sour look on their faces while they're playing. It's not a job to them, it's the thing that brings them joy.

Where do I stand personally?

I believe in balance. I look at it like a meal. The groove is the actual meal itself, yet unseasoned. Each person's taste differs from the next, but many can agree on when food is under-seasoned, seasoned perfectly, or over-seasoned.

As I've aged, I've become less and less impressed with drummers who feel the need to try every chop they know, in every song they play. I'm also weary of those musicians who claim to love playing, but they take it sooo seriously, that they never crack a smile, and they verbally assault any musician who isn't indifferent to chops.

I understand what will get you work. However, that's kind of the issue ... music has become 'work'. When it becomes 'work' ... that's when, in my opinion, you begin to lose the thrill. We become so hypnotized into thinking 'groove only' by musicians that we respect ... that we fail to see that we're too concerned by what other musicians think, to loosen up, and have SOME fun, like we did when we were younger musicians.

I think, both the older musicians, and the younger musicians could learn a thing or two from each other. Anybody can hold down the groove, and every should/must learn to do so. However, I feel that, chops are where we really begin to explore the limitless possibilities that music have to over. It's where we begin to tap into our creative Selves, and establish our own musical identities.

Gerald Heyward, Chris Dave, Dennis Chambers .. can all play the same song, but how do we REALLY tell the one from the other? What they do in those 'empty spaces'.

Discipline & Fun, friends.  Don't take music to seriously, but don't take it too lightly, either. That's something I think many of us can stand to learn.

~OD

amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fretai03]

Nice bump.

[smarkland38]

Hey LGM FAM! Didn't we talk about this a little while ago don't get me wrong valid points here. The younger musicians i noticed do like playing alot of chops than pocket,  putting chops in every point of the song is more appealing than playing straight pocket, the older musicians play pocket. For me it comes by experience when i was younger i played alot of chops, as i got older i did more pocket. I was criticized for playing more pocket, by  the younger drummers and surprisingly older ones they saying i wasn't to appealing anymore. I was shocked to myself don't they understand about musicianship. Play whatever the song calls for if the song,bridge calls for chops then do that,if it calls for more pocket then play pocket.

[geedoub]

Good stuff,  Sounds alittle like me, Want to get there without putting in the work, 4 real. Oh by the way What is Bump? I'm new to dis.

[soul_drummer]

Oh by the way What is Bump? I'm new to dis.

How do you tune cymbals?..........lol

[geedoub]

Nice....

[soul_drummer]

Nice....

I'm just messin man...GB

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

It's basically the new school vs. the old school.  I'm from the old school and I am about pocket.  I hear all of these young cats calling out the same names all the time.  These young cats are excellent and I am a fan of many of their styles.  But I rarely hear any of you young dudes speaking about the old school drummers like Clyde Stubblefield and John "Jabo" Starks(two of my main influences), John "J.R." Robinson, Jonathan Moffett, Yogi Horton, Jeff Porcaro, Bernard Purdie, that cat that played for the Ohio Players (name?) and many more.  These dudes laid the ground work for what is done today.  You hear them in many of your hip-hop samples.  They were about groove and respecting the music first.  Go back and check out some of the old school cats if you never have.  I guarantee you will learn something if you really listen.  Even in "Drum Line" when Devin went back and studied those old tapes his pops sent him, he learned so much more than he thought he already knew and it made him better. 

Spanky, Aaron, Gerald, Sput, Doobie and many of these current drummers are the truth, but I see many of you just focusing on their tricks and chops, but no one has ever said, those cats got the pocket down as well.  Fundamentals are what keeps them working.  I'm sure they will tell you that themselves. 

This will be a debate until the end of time.  But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.