Circle of 4ths/5ths?

[Bro_JT]

What are those? Can someone please explain them to me? God Bless!

[T-Block]

The circle of 5ths/4ths is just keys and notes. Here is how i look at each circle:

The circle of 5ths is used to show how many sharps or flats are in each key. It is like a clock. You start at the top with C that has no sharps or flats. Then you move clockwise (to the right) to G, which has 1 sharp, then to D, which has 2 sharps, then to A, which has 3 sharps, then to E, which has 4 sharps, then to B, which has 5 shaprs, then to F#, which has 6 sharps, then to C#, which has 7 sharps. From there, you switch to flats with Cb, which has 7 flats, then to Gb, which has 6 flats, then to Db which has 5 flats, then to Ab, which has 4 flats, then to Eb, which has 3 flats, then to Bb, which has 2 flats, then to F, which has 1 flat, then you are back at C. Here is an illustration:

C = 0 sharps or flats
G = 1 sharp (F#)
D = 2 sharps (F#, C#)
A = 3 sharps (F#, C#, G#)
E = 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#)
B = 5 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#)
F# = 6 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#)
C# = 7 shaprs (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#)
(switch)
Cb = 7 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb)
Gb = 6 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb)
Db = 5 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb)
Ab = 4 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db)
Eb = 3 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab)
Bb = 2 flats (Bb, Eb)
F = 1 flat (Bb)
C = 0 sharps or flats

The circle of 4ths is where your progressions come from. In other words, it has solely to do with bass/LH notes. To me, that is the only significance of it. Just take the circle of 5ths and read it backwards.

See what I mean by keys and note? Circle of 5ths is for keys and circle of 4ths is for notes.

[T-Block]

Practice using Circle of 4ths

Here is a little practice routine that you can use to help you learn the circle of 4ths.  Remember, you are mainly focusing on the bass / LH notes.  Just read the circle of 5ths backwards.  

Now, check this out: you can also form 2 separate, continuous little circles of 4ths from the big circle of 4ths.  Sounds confusing huh?  Let me illustrate it:

Circle 1:

A / G-C-E          
D / F#-C-E   or   D / F#-B-D#        
G / F-Bb-D          
C / E-Bb-D   or   C / E-A-C#
F / Eb-Ab-C
Bb / D-Ab-C   or   Bb / D-G-B
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb
Ab / C-Gb-Bb   or   Ab / C-F-A  
Db / Cb-E-Ab
Gb / Bb-E-Ab   or   Gb / Bb-Eb-G
B / A-D-F#
E / G#-D-F#   or   E / G#-C#-E#
(and you right back where you started)

Circle 2:

D / C-F-A
G / B-F-A   or   G / B-E-G#
C / Bb-Eb-G
F / A-Eb-G   or   F / A-D-F#
Bb / Ab-Db-F
Eb / G-Db-F   or   Eb / G-C-E
Ab / Gb-B-Db
Db / F-B-Db   or   Db / F-Bb-D
Gb / Fb-A-Db
Cb / Eb-A-Db   or   Cb / Eb-Ab-C
E / D-G-B
A / C#-G-B   or   A / C#-F#-A#
(and you right back where you started)

Now, look at these 2 circles of 4ths.  They look similar, they use all the same notes, but each will sound different because they start different.  The first circle starts with A going to D, but the second circle starts with D going to G.  Can you see the difference?  It's hard to see at first, but you'll get it.

[CESharp]

Okay, then how do you know what chords to play in the right hand? I understand circle 1 and 2 (bass notes) but I'm not exactly comprehending the chords.  That's my biggest issue.
HELP!!!

[T-Block]

Well, chords is a whole other ballgame.  I'm afraid the Circle of 5ths/4ths won't help you with chords.  Most chords are found using trial and error.  Once you find something that sounds good, you then analyze it using your theory.  Let me take one of the circles and break it down:

Circle 1:

A / G-C-E
D / F#-C-E or D / F#-B-D#
G / F-Bb-D
C / E-Bb-D or C / E-A-C#
F / Eb-Ab-C
Bb / D-Ab-C or Bb / D-G-B
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb
Ab / C-Gb-Bb or Ab / C-F-A
Db / Cb-E-Ab
Gb / Bb-E-Ab or Gb / Bb-Eb-G
B / A-D-F#
E / G#-D-F# or E / G#-C#-E#
(and you right back where you started)

Basically, what u got here is a never-ending 6-2-5-1 progression.  Let's look at this by breaking this circle down into even smaller circles by viewing it four chords at a time:

A / G-C-E
D / F#-C-E or D / F#-B-D#
G / F-Bb-D
C / E-Bb-D or C / E-A-C#

This one is in the Key of C:

A / G-C-E is an Am7 chord
D / F#-C-E is a D7 chord
*D / F#-B-D# (not really sure about this chord)
G / F-Bb-D is a Gm7 chord
C / E-Bb-D is a C7 chord
*C / E-A-C# (not really sure about this chord)

F / Eb-Ab-C
Bb / D-Ab-C or Bb / D-G-B
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb
Ab / C-Gb-Bb or Ab / C-F-A

This one is in the Key of Ab:

F / Eb-Ab-C is an Fm7 chord
Bb / D-Ab-C is a Bb7 chord
*Bb / D-G-B  (not really sure about this chord)
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb is a Ebm7 chord
Ab / C-Gb-Bb is an Ab7 chord
*Ab / C-F-A (not really sure about this chord)

Db / Cb-E-Ab
Gb / Bb-E-Ab or Gb / Bb-Eb-G
B / A-D-F#
E / G#-D-F# or E / G#-C#-E#

This one is in the Key of E:

*Db / Cb-E-Ab is a Dbm7 chord
*can be renamed to: C# / B-E-G# is a C#m7 chord
*Gb / Bb-E-Ab is a Gb7 chord
*can be renamed to: F# / A#-E-G# is an F#7 chord
*Gb / Bb-Eb-G (not really sure about this chord)
B / A-D-F# is a Bm7 chord
E / G#-D-F# is an E7 chord
*E / G#-C#-E# (not really sure about this chord)

Now, let's put them all together:

Key of C
A / G-C-E is an Am7 chord
D / F#-C-E is a D7 chord
*D / F#-B-D# (not really sure about this chord)
G / F-Bb-D is a Gm7 chord
C / E-Bb-D is a C7 chord
*C / E-A-C# (not really sure about this chord)
Key of Ab
F / Eb-Ab-C is an Fm7 chord
Bb / D-Ab-C is a Bb7 chord
*Bb / D-G-B  (not really sure about this chord)
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb is a Ebm7 chord
Ab / C-Gb-Bb is an Ab7 chord
*Ab / C-F-A (not really sure about this chord)
Key of E
*Db / Cb-E-Ab is a Dbm7 chord
*can be renamed to: C# / B-E-G# is a C#m7 chord
*Gb / Bb-E-Ab is a Gb7 chord
*can be renamed to: F# / A#-E-G# is an F#7 chord
*Gb / Bb-Eb-G (not really sure about this chord)
B / A-D-F# is a Bm7 chord
E / G#-D-F# is an E7 chord
*E / G#-C#-E# (not really sure about this chord)


You see that?  Does that help shed some light on it for you?  I honestly don't know who originally came up with this cuz somebody showed me how to play it a long time ago.  I just analyzed what he gave me.  Once you get used to hearing and playing this, u will do it w/out even really thinking about it.  If u still having trouble, I'll try to explain it more for you.

[CESharp]

it looks like you used a lot of "7ths" for your chords of each note (i think those are diminished chords).  If I am right, then I do understand what you just did.

looks like I need to memorize the number in each key then I will be able to decifer what progression, etc. it is.

You have been sooooo helpful and patient T-Block!!!

[T-Block]

Yeah, in order to see that the chords are 7th chords, you have to look at both hands as a whole and stack the notes up in 3rds.

There aren't any diminished chords of any kind present.

Glad I could be of service to you.

[CESharp]

So is it safe to say:

When in doubt, play the 7th? Will that work?

[sjonathan02]

Yeah, in order to see that the chords are 7th chords, you have to look at both hands as a whole and stack the notes up in 3rds.

There aren't any diminished chords of any kind present.

Glad I could be of service to you.

Hold on, Preacher!  :lol:  :lol:

Now, when I play these chords I hear these progressions, not as 6-2-5-1 progressions, but rather, as 3-6-2-5-1, without the one.

Now, as I understand theory, I believe it is because of that dominant 7th (that you are calling a 1).

for example, in this you say that this is in the key of C, but I hear it in the key of F:


A / G-C-E is an Am7 chord
D / F#-C-E is a D7 chord
*D / F#-B-D# (not really sure about this chord)
G / F-Bb-D is a Gm7 chord

[/b]C / E-Bb-D is a C7 chord
*C / E-A-C# (not really sure about this chord)[/b]

For me, due to what I highlighted in your example, I hear this chord going or "pulling" to the 1 in the key of F:

F/A-C-E-G

I was taught, told, and can hear that a dominant pulls the listener to a 1 chord. Is that correct?

[CESharp]

doesn't it depend on what key you want it in? It would be one way in C and another progression in F ........am I getting the hang of it
In the key of G wouldn't it be a 2-5-1?

[T-Block]

sjonathan02 wrote:

I was taught, told, and can hear that a dominant pulls the listener to a 1 chord. Is that correct?

Almost correct.  A dominant chord wants to resolve to 4 of the chord, regardless of what key you in, not 1.  Here are examples:

C / C-E-G-Bb
F / C-F-A (4 of C)

Bb / Bb-D-F-Ab
Eb / Bb-Eb-F (4 of Bb)  

F# / F#-A#-C#-E
B / F#-B-D# (4 of F#)

Now, if the 2nd chord happens to be a 1 chord cuz of the key u in, then that's fine.  But, to say that a dominant chord goes to 1 is wrong cuz it don't always work out that way.

for example, in this you say that this is in the key of C, but I hear it in the key of F:


A / G-C-E is an Am7 chord
D / F#-C-E is a D7 chord
*D / F#-B-D# (not really sure about this chord)
G / F-Bb-D is a Gm7 chord

[/b]C / E-Bb-D is a C7 chord
*C / E-A-C# (not really sure about this chord)[/b]

For me, due to what I highlighted in your example, I hear this chord going or "pulling" to the 1 in the key of F:

F/A-C-E-G

Your right that the C7 chord wants to go to F, but your reasoning that F is 1 is wrong.  C7 wants to go to F cuz F is 4 in the key of C. Let me show you how this qualifies as being in the Key of C by adding 7-3 in front of it and 4-2-5-1 behind it:

B / A-D-F (7)
E / Ab-C-D-G (3)
A / G-C-E (6)
D / F#-C-E (2)
G / F-Bb-D (5)
C / E-Bb-D (1)
F / C-F-A (4)
D / Ab-C-D-F (2)
G / G-C-E (5)
G / F-G-C-D (5)
G / F-G-B-D (5)
C / E-G-C (1)

You hear how it's in C now and how u get a sens of resolution?  Please trust me that my original circle of 4ths progressions are indeed 6-2-5-1s cuz I been playing it for years and I have studied this in College Theory.  I am not going to lead you wrong buddy. :lol:

Let me explain it another way too.  Look at the first five chords:

Circle 1:

A / G-C-E
D / F#-C-E or D / F#-B-D#
G / F-Bb-D
C / E-Bb-D or C / E-A-C#
F / Eb-Ab-C

If this is truly a 3-6-2-5-1 in F, than that last chord should be some type of F major chord, but what u have is an Fm7 chord.  I have been listening to music for years, and I have never heard a piece of music end with a m7 chord.  Some songs do end with M7 chords, but not m7 chords.  And, the fact that u have a m7 chord there should tell you to keep going cuz that's not 1.  You don't get a sense of completion ending with a m7 chord.  Does that make sense? Are you understanding a little better now?  I told you it would be confusing, but if you keep playing it through, it will make more sense to you.

[T-Block]

CESharp wrote:

So is it safe to say:

When in doubt, play the 7th? Will that work?

Naw, don't say that cuz that won't always work for every situation.

doesn't it depend on what key you want it in? It would be one way in C and another progression in F ........am I getting the hang of it
In the key of G wouldn't it be a 2-5-1?

It doesn't depend on what key you want it to be.  The way I have them written is what key they are in.  Please trust me, like I told sjonathan02, I am not going to lead u wrong. :lol:

Anyways, even if you just take it 2 chords at a time, the 2nd chord is the key you in, which means that they are just mini 5-1 progressions.  Since the 2nd chord in each little gouping is a dominant 7th chord, you can't end on it.  You have to go to 4 of that chord, then do a 2-5-1 and end with some type of major chord.  Let me show you:

Circle 1:

A / G-C-E
D / F#-C-E or D / F#-B-D#
G / F-Bb-D
C / E-Bb-D or C / E-A-C#
F / Eb-Ab-C
Bb / D-Ab-C or Bb / D-G-B
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb
Ab / C-Gb-Bb or Ab / C-F-A
Db / Cb-E-Ab
Gb / Bb-E-Ab or Gb / Bb-Eb-G
B / A-D-F#
E / G#-D-F# or E / G#-C#-E#
(and you right back where you started)

Let's take a look at the first 2 chords:

Key D

A / G-C-E (5)
D / F#-C-E (1)
G / D-G-B (4)
E / A#-D-E-G (2)
A / A-D-F# (5)
A / G-A-D-E (5)
A / G-A-C#-E (5)
D / F#-A-D

Let's take a look at the next 2 chords:

G / F-Bb-D (5)
C / E-Bb-D (1)
F / C-F-A (4)
D / Ab-C-D-F (2)
G / G-C-E (5)
G / F-G-C-D (5)
G / F-G-B-D (5)
C / E-G-C (1)

You get the idea right?  If you just learn what I got here, then I promise you it will become more clearer to you as you pracitce it more and more.  You will even start to hear it in songs and then you will be like "Ohhhh, I get it now!"

[sjonathan02]

Ok, T-Block, you've got it on that one. The dominant resolves to a 4. sounds like something that I can keep straight in my head.


So, let's take this discussion a step further, shall we. Can one then use that F major chord as a substitute for the one and then go into those "worship" chords. You know the kind using strings and stuff, when the preacher is asking the congregation to "open up your mouth and give Him your worship" type chords.

Does that make sense?  :?

[T-Block]

Yeah man, you can take it whever you want to go with it.  But, if you say you in the Key of F, then you better start playing chords that are arranged
with F being the new 1.  So, to establish F as your new key, I would do something like this:

Key C (old key)

A / G-C-E (6)
D / F#-C-E (2)
G / F-Bb-D (5)
C / E-Bb-D (1)
F / C-F-A (4)

Switch to Key F (new key)

F / C-F-G-A (1)
F / Eb-F-G-C (1)
F / D-F-G-B (1)
F / Db-F-G-Bb (1)
(repeat)

You see & hear that?  Now you can hear that C is gone and F is the new key.

[sjonathan02]

Ok, T-Block, I'm feelin' (and even beginning to understand) what you're saying here. So, where are those worship chords you promised?  

*you said it in another post...something about chords while someone was praying*

[CESharp]

T-Block....................YOU THE MAN.......IN JESUS NAME!!!

I will definitely look this over and attempt to comprehend all of this (I'm at work right now).

If I have anymore questions I'll post them

Thanks er'one for the chat/lesson.

[T-Block]

sjonathan02 wrote:

Ok, T-Block, I'm feelin' (and even beginning to understand) what you're saying here. So, where are those worship chords you promised?  

*you said it in another post...something about chords while someone was praying*

I posted it a while ago.  I think you got them already.  Just to refresh your memory, here is the link: http://learngospelmusic.com/ftopict-16668-music.html+slow+songs

[sjonathan02]

sjonathan02 wrote:

Ok, T-Block, I'm feelin' (and even beginning to understand) what you're saying here. So, where are those worship chords you promised?  

*you said it in another post...something about chords while someone was praying*

I posted it a while ago.  I think you got them already.  Just to refresh your memory, here is the link: http://learngospelmusic.com/ftopict-16668-music.html+slow+songs

Oh yea, I did get that. Sorry about the mix-up.