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Author Topic: Question for you Drum Experts  (Read 2585 times)

Offline Krazy_afro_man

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Question for you Drum Experts
« on: January 10, 2006, 02:07:06 AM »
When I hear a drummer do a really good roll that was off beat and ouside the pocket and then he comes back on beat, is this a result of mastering an off time rythym? I hear spanky doing a lot of stuff outside of a normal beat and im trying to figure out how he does it. Eric Tribett is also really good at doing this. I can go outside the pocket and do some nice stuff to turn heads but I dont know the theory behind it and I want to know. Where can I find out about odd time signatures and what they sound like? I see stuff like 13/16, 7/8, 3/4 and I have no clue what that means or how to do it. Someone Please Help!!

Offline SabianKnight

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2006, 03:32:43 PM »
Quote from: Krazy_afro_man
When I hear a drummer do a really good roll that was off beat and ouside the pocket and then he comes back on beat, is this a result of mastering an off time rythym? I hear spanky doing a lot of stuff outside of a normal beat and im trying to figure out how he does it. Eric Tribett is also really good at doing this. I can go outside the pocket and do some nice stuff to turn heads but I dont know the theory behind it and I want to know. Where can I find out about odd time signatures and what they sound like? I see stuff like 13/16, 7/8, 3/4 and I have no clue what that means or how to do it. Someone Please Help!!


Okay short explaination....

First off, because a riff has an over the bar feel doesn't mean that it is in an odd time signature. The "pocket" of a song is dictated and varies based on both the time signature and the phrasing of the melody. Understanding the subdivisions (eighths, sixteenths, thirtyseconds, sixtyfourths) allows you to change the rhythmic feel to an over the bar type based on the combinations of subdivisions used in the pattern/riff/lick. This understanding also allows you to pull of metric modulations of shifting time signatures.

Time Signatures (as relates to subdivisions) ...
13/16, 7/8, 5/4, 3/4, 12/8, cut time, half time....  
The top number tells you howmany notes of the bottom number value are in a measure: 13/16 means there are 13 sixteenth notes per measure or bar so you count all the way to 13 before you get to the "1" again. We are use to 4/4 time mostly where ther are 16 sixtenth notes per measure.

The bottom numbe let's you know what note value getes the beat (what note your count is based on): 7/8 means the eighth note gets the beat/count so you count 1 to 7  ever measure/bar these are your down beats. Your up beats are sixtenth notes because there are 2 sixteenth notes in every eighth note.

3/4 is a subdivide of 6/8. Iyou have a 6/8 you could count it 1-2-3-1-2-3 or properly 1-2-3-4-5-6.

12/8 can be broken into 4 groups of of 3 eigth notes. This is the basis for our 4/4 triplet feel which is the base of all American music. This unnderstanding is what gives African-American musicians there "bounce" or "swing".

Cut time (double time) cuts the note value in half or doubles its speed. 4/4 becomes 2/4 and eighth notes are played as sixteenths which give s it a speeded (modulated) feel. This is what happens when you go from a groove to a shout.

Half time is a modulation as well of the 4/4 but you seem to slow down. Instead of two back beats you have one. Instead of hitting the snare on 2 and 4 you hit it on 3 but the bass drum stays the same.

Podemski's Snare Drum Method book is a great resource for all these musical terms, symbols etc. It has great definitionans and examples. THe Table of Time in the book , Masters Studies by Joe Morello will give you a good reference for playing odd note groupings and understanding subdivisions.
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rjthakid

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Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2006, 03:39:57 PM »
:idea:  Thanks for sheddin some light on another tricky topic

JFunky

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Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2006, 04:53:54 PM »
Yo "Sabe", thanks again for the free lesson... now if I can find a translater I'd be straight... :lol:  :wink: Jk.

Offline drumzalicious

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Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2006, 09:15:16 PM »
most of the time it's not playing in a odd time but just how you phrase something. for instance if i play strait 16th notes (4 note per beat) and instead of accenting every four notes i accent say every 5 notes, it's just me phrasing it differently then what most are used to. same thing goes for if i play a fill that starts with the left hand instead of the right it will jack some people up because they arent used to hearing things played that way, and it isn't that i go into a different time its the fact that i just phrase the pattern differently.

now sometimes people do go into different time signatures, thats called metric modulation, or in other words playing a time signature like 6/8 over 4/4 which is nothing but playing the quarter note triplets so on and so forth you will understand it if you start learning theory and you will love the things you can do. like if i use the 6/8 pulse as my down beat instead of the 4/4 pulse and phrase it crazily....

HumbleGospelDrummer

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2007, 06:16:51 PM »
How do you know where to place the accents on all of the different odd time signatures?

HumbleGospelDrummer

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2007, 06:28:58 PM »
Are the "traditional" type songs like the one yamahaboy played in his clip in 4/8?  The bass is on the quarter(down beat) and the snare is on the the eight(upbeat) correct?  Are the sixteenth notes of 4/8 is the same as 2/4? :-\

I know....im thinkin' about this too hard....

Offline Shadow_

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2007, 06:53:53 PM »
Yo sabianknight fanx for shedding sum light on dat bt can u explain more on the 12/8 notation im abit lost ?/?. do u know ani sites dat explain more of this?   
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Offline Shadow_

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 06:58:03 PM »
and how can you apply dis to fills?
Why do bad people happen to good things?

Offline BEATBOXERZ

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2007, 10:23:52 AM »


Okay short explaination....

First off, because a riff has an over the bar feel doesn't mean that it is in an odd time signature. The "pocket" of a song is dictated and varies based on both the time signature and the phrasing of the melody. Understanding the subdivisions (eighths, sixteenths, thirtyseconds, sixtyfourths) allows you to change the rhythmic feel to an over the bar type based on the combinations of subdivisions used in the pattern/riff/lick. This understanding also allows you to pull of metric modulations of shifting time signatures.

Time Signatures (as relates to subdivisions) ...
13/16, 7/8, 5/4, 3/4, 12/8, cut time, half time....  
The top number tells you howmany notes of the bottom number value are in a measure: 13/16 means there are 13 sixteenth notes per measure or bar so you count all the way to 13 before you get to the "1" again. We are use to 4/4 time mostly where ther are 16 sixtenth notes per measure.

The bottom numbe let's you know what note value getes the beat (what note your count is based on): 7/8 means the eighth note gets the beat/count so you count 1 to 7  ever measure/bar these are your down beats. Your up beats are sixtenth notes because there are 2 sixteenth notes in every eighth note.

3/4 is a subdivide of 6/8. Iyou have a 6/8 you could count it 1-2-3-1-2-3 or properly 1-2-3-4-5-6.

12/8 can be broken into 4 groups of of 3 eigth notes. This is the basis for our 4/4 triplet feel which is the base of all American music. This unnderstanding is what gives African-American musicians there "bounce" or "swing".

Cut time (double time) cuts the note value in half or doubles its speed. 4/4 becomes 2/4 and eighth notes are played as sixteenths which give s it a speeded (modulated) feel. This is what happens when you go from a groove to a shout.

Half time is a modulation as well of the 4/4 but you seem to slow down. Instead of two back beats you have one. Instead of hitting the snare on 2 and 4 you hit it on 3 but the bass drum stays the same.

Podemski's Snare Drum Method book is a great resource for all these musical terms, symbols etc. It has great definitionans and examples. THe Table of Time in the book , Masters Studies by Joe Morello will give you a good reference for playing odd note groupings and understanding subdivisions.

Good lesson SK :).

Offline Cherri

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2007, 11:12:36 AM »
Yo sabianknight fanx for shedding sum light on dat bt can u explain more on the 12/8 notation im abit lost ?/?. do u know ani sites dat explain more of this?   

You must understand note values to understand time signatures (the possibilites are endless, yet beautiful). Let's see I'll keep it simple, 12/8 which means 12 eighth notes (in value) per measure. In relations to the quarter note pulse that will be 3 hits (counts) per quarter note, quarter notes are indicated in ( ).

12/8 can be counted as: (1) + ah (2) + ah (3) + ah (4) + ah 


To really understand and grasp these concepts a metronome is definitely the main item on the menu. As far as sites on basic note values and basic time signatures, there are many-just go to google.com and type your questions. This is not something you'll grasp in a day or two, absorb and apply. Happy Learning...


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Offline j_kay

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2007, 11:18:15 AM »
You must understand note values to understand time signatures (the possibilites are endless, yet beautiful).

QFT. 

Good post, Cherri and good educational resurface, N.J._the_kidd. 

Could this be merged into the stickied section (if it's not there, and if you feel that it would benefit the forum)? 

~ This thread is beyond hijacked - it's been kidnapped... ~

Offline Shadow_

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2007, 12:29:45 PM »
fanx cherrie nyc post helped alot  ;D.

God bless
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Offline fretai03

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2007, 02:26:47 PM »
Yes, thanks for the thread digging.

I needed this. Its amazing how much I understood (now) compared to when this thread was first discussed.

Could this be merged into the stickied section (if it's not there, and if you feel that it would benefit the forum)? 

Wonders... "Did I emphasis this enough?"

HumbleGospelDrummer

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Re: Question for you Drum Experts
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2007, 04:39:39 PM »
Other than this dude keeps goin' off subject or whatnot, rambling, this is a good vid:

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